Opinions on Value/Authenticity

[shelly]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

In light of other learned opinions, I suppose not, but I'm not going to get into arguments about it.

It would appear I could have been wrong with my initial assessment.

It takes a strong person to admit they where mistaken

[nolemmings]

I'm not an autograph guy and have no problems with the opinions expressed in this thread, but was still wondering a couple of things.

1. Is it the consensus that all of these signatures are bogus? I too saw the similarity of several signatures--Mellilo and Higgins, the F's in Foxx and Fritz, most of the capital "J's" etc, but wondered if any of them are legit.

2. Suppose some are legit on a piece like this, and that even if some were ghost signed it was not done for any real malevolent purpose (like Pinky saying "hey Oscar sign for me too, I'm eating"). Does the presence of some or even mostly all bad sigs torpedo the value of the entire item? Would it be better from a value statement to just salvage and cut out the good signatures?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

1. Is it the consensus that all of these signatures are bogus? I too saw the similarity of several signatures--Mellilo and Higgins, the F's in Foxx and Fritz, most of the capital "J's" etc, but wondered if any of them are legit.

Yes.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

2. Suppose some are legit on a piece like this, and that even if some were ghost signed it was not done for any real malevolent purpose (like Pinky saying "hey Oscar sign for me too, I'm eating"). Does the presence of some or even mostly all bad sigs torpedo the value of the entire item? Would it be better from a value statement to just salvage and cut out the good signatures?

I think it depends on several variables....
1) how many are real vs not. - The more that are real the more valuable as a group.

2) is the item in question historically significant to the signers(like a program from a game they all played or a testimonial program) - The more significant the item, the more valuable as a group.

3) perhaps most importantly which are real and which aren't. If the only real ones are the lesser guys, it's possible the separated cuts would be worth more. If most of the big names were real, I think leaving it together might be better.

[Runscott]

I looked at 6 or 7 and they were all bad. I then looked at similarities in writing and it confirmed to me that the piece was bad, and that it was probably that all signatures were bad (6-7 bad ones on a piece like this is not normal secretarial work).

There were a couple I looked at that I could not find a similar exemplar, but they did have similarities to real ones, so I didn't rule out that the signature was an anomaly;e.g-Bing Miller. In general, it didn't look like the forger spent that much time trying to make any of them close to a real signature - he seemed more concerned with getting the right overall look to the piece;e.g-signature placement, some light-some dark,some large-some small, pinholes, lots of folds.

When I was a kid we used to create forged sheets like this, using Topps baseball card signatures. It was kind of fun. It could be that this was created way back when, for fun - not malicious.

[nolemmings]

Thanks. Probably better that I just stay away from this stuff, but I appreciate the education.

[Lordstan]

Todd,
It's just like every other type of collecting. In order to do it well and safely, you have to learn about the subject matter and the how people attempt to take advantage. It may appear more dangerous, but the reality is that it isn't. Autographs are no more complicated than cards or bats or pennants. If you were spending good money on a card, I bet you would research what it's supposed to look like, Right? You would learn how rare the cards are by, among other things, reading guide books, joining an online forum, joining collectors clubs, and talking to people, both other collectors and dealers, at shows. I think this is how we all learned about the things we like to collect.

When I started on this forum, I knew nothing about vintage photography. At the time, Jimmy C(Kingofclout), was very active on the board, specializing in that field, and I asked him a TON of questions. I absorbed everything I could about it. Now, while I don't consider myself an expert, I have become educated in the field and feel very comfortable researching, purchasing, and even giving advice about vintage photography. Plus, there is still more to learn.

The best piece of advice for you and all the others that are considering entering into autograph collecting is to study. Learn all you can, before you spend the big bucks. There are plenty of knowledgeable and helpful autograph people around to help you learn and plenty of good dealers around to allow you to buy in the safest way possible.

Jimmy,
It was what you said, not how strongly you said it that concerned myself and others. You stated that the COA people will "work with you." This implies that they might pass an auto that isn't good to get your return business.

As a card guy, think of it like this. Supposed I came to the card side and told someone who was new to cards that they should submit a 52 Mantle, that everyone here states is fake, to a PSA, etc anyway. I go on to advise that they should have submitted it to the TPAs first, instead of asking opinions here, because hey PSA/SGC/etc want your return business, so they might "work with you." Don't you think I would get eaten alive by the card guys for suggesting this? Don't you think the implication that it if, somehow, the TPAs did slab the fake card, which we all know has happened, for that person, that it would be OK for them to sell because the TPAs slabbed it, would be met with harsh opinions from all the guys on that side? (What are we East[cards] and West Germany[memorabilia]?)

Best,
Mark

[jbsports33]

I agree – my mistake for making a statement/statements like that, I just wish I had the time to explain myself more and should have responded better. I Really do not have the time to think before I write sometimes, and also do not have the time to go back and forth. I get the point and will move on – thanks for all the advice and I appreciate the feedback from my responses.

Jimmy