Opinions on Value/Authenticity

[MooseDog]

Originally Posted by shelly

Do you still think it is absolutely authentic.

In light of other learned opinions, I suppose not, but I'm not going to get into arguments about it.

It would appear I could have been wrong with my initial assessment.

[jbsports33]

Well, I guess there was some confusion to what I said and there seems to be no trust in the COA companies on this board or at least some of the members from this post. Sorry if my statement was mis-leading and I thought the COA companies had some credit in the Autograph hobby. I will be honest, I am mostly a card guy and always have been, but over the years have had my experiences with autographs. Something needs to change in the autograph business if there are things going on that I am learning from this post – sorry I came off strong at times, but the fact is sometimes it can be hard to say anything on this board. I guess you learn from participating as Leon said in his post, I think next time – my responses will not be as long and confusing. I fully understand the comments Mark mentioned and it was not my intention to say to everyone – they need to blow their money on a COA

Jimmy

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

Well, I guess there was some confusion to what I said and there seems to be no trust in the COA companies on this board or at least some of the members from this post. Sorry if my statement was mis-leading and I thought the COA companies had some credit in the Autograph hobby. I will be honest, I am mostly a card guy and always have been, but over the years have had my experiences with autographs. Something needs to change in the autograph business if there are things going on that I am learning from this post – sorry I came off strong at times, but the fact is sometimes it can be hard to say anything on this board. I guess you learn from participating as Leon said in his post, I think next time – my responses will not be as long and confusing. I fully understand the comments Mark mentioned and it was not my intention to say to everyone – they need to blow their money on a COA

Jimmy

Jimmy, I don't think you come off too strong, or that you need to worry about responding. If you think it's "hard to say anything on this board" and don't feel like putting out the effort, that's up to you, but the only thing difficult that you have to worry about is analyzing your audience prior to speaking. If you don't feel like doing that, then just realize that you might get some strong disagreement if you are in the minority, but that, like the rest of us, it's the internet and unless things devolve into a battle of name-calling, most of us will forget it.

I also think that there was Zero confusion about what you said. You simply stated things that astounded some of us.

And finally, your black-or-white statement that there "there seems to be no trust in the COA companies on this board or at least some of the members from this post" is a distortion of what we have said. A truer statement would be that YOU seem to place complete trust in the COA companies to do your thinking for you. To sum up succinctly: sending this garbage to a TPA would be a waste of time and money. Going to the TPA's before you go here is your option. Going to the TPA's after reading this thread would be just plain stupid - yes, they might put a COA on it (but I doubt it), but it WILL NOT MAKE IT REAL.

Talk with you soon, I'm sure.

[Runscott]

...and not having trust in the TPA's is a lot different from thinking they have no place in the hobby. Most of us just want to see improvements. Until they are willing to spend more time studying autographs and doing the research that some of us do, we are going to have to rely on forums like this. If you don't think that is wise, then spin the roulette wheel.

In addition, some of the people who come here asking authenticity questions are doing it for items that already have TPA approval - they want a real autograph, not a pretty certificate. The people who buy more expensive vintage autographs from me almost never ask about COA's. I frequently find COA's from JSA or PSA lying around months after I sold an autograph (yes, I save them), then email the customer and ask if they want it.

That should tell you something.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

In light of other learned opinions, I suppose not, but I'm not going to get into arguments about it.

It would appear I could have been wrong with my initial assessment.

My apologies for responding so strongly. These items exist for a reason and a lot of very intelligent collectors have owned some of them.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

In light of other learned opinions, I suppose not, but I'm not going to get into arguments about it.

It would appear I could have been wrong with my initial assessment.

It takes a strong person to admit they where mistaken

[nolemmings]

I'm not an autograph guy and have no problems with the opinions expressed in this thread, but was still wondering a couple of things.

1. Is it the consensus that all of these signatures are bogus? I too saw the similarity of several signatures--Mellilo and Higgins, the F's in Foxx and Fritz, most of the capital "J's" etc, but wondered if any of them are legit.

2. Suppose some are legit on a piece like this, and that even if some were ghost signed it was not done for any real malevolent purpose (like Pinky saying "hey Oscar sign for me too, I'm eating"). Does the presence of some or even mostly all bad sigs torpedo the value of the entire item? Would it be better from a value statement to just salvage and cut out the good signatures?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

1. Is it the consensus that all of these signatures are bogus? I too saw the similarity of several signatures--Mellilo and Higgins, the F's in Foxx and Fritz, most of the capital "J's" etc, but wondered if any of them are legit.

Yes.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

2. Suppose some are legit on a piece like this, and that even if some were ghost signed it was not done for any real malevolent purpose (like Pinky saying "hey Oscar sign for me too, I'm eating"). Does the presence of some or even mostly all bad sigs torpedo the value of the entire item? Would it be better from a value statement to just salvage and cut out the good signatures?

I think it depends on several variables....
1) how many are real vs not. - The more that are real the more valuable as a group.

2) is the item in question historically significant to the signers(like a program from a game they all played or a testimonial program) - The more significant the item, the more valuable as a group.

3) perhaps most importantly which are real and which aren't. If the only real ones are the lesser guys, it's possible the separated cuts would be worth more. If most of the big names were real, I think leaving it together might be better.

[Runscott]

I looked at 6 or 7 and they were all bad. I then looked at similarities in writing and it confirmed to me that the piece was bad, and that it was probably that all signatures were bad (6-7 bad ones on a piece like this is not normal secretarial work).

There were a couple I looked at that I could not find a similar exemplar, but they did have similarities to real ones, so I didn't rule out that the signature was an anomaly;e.g-Bing Miller. In general, it didn't look like the forger spent that much time trying to make any of them close to a real signature - he seemed more concerned with getting the right overall look to the piece;e.g-signature placement, some light-some dark,some large-some small, pinholes, lots of folds.

When I was a kid we used to create forged sheets like this, using Topps baseball card signatures. It was kind of fun. It could be that this was created way back when, for fun - not malicious.

[nolemmings]

Thanks. Probably better that I just stay away from this stuff, but I appreciate the education.

[Lordstan]

Todd,
It's just like every other type of collecting. In order to do it well and safely, you have to learn about the subject matter and the how people attempt to take advantage. It may appear more dangerous, but the reality is that it isn't. Autographs are no more complicated than cards or bats or pennants. If you were spending good money on a card, I bet you would research what it's supposed to look like, Right? You would learn how rare the cards are by, among other things, reading guide books, joining an online forum, joining collectors clubs, and talking to people, both other collectors and dealers, at shows. I think this is how we all learned about the things we like to collect.

When I started on this forum, I knew nothing about vintage photography. At the time, Jimmy C(Kingofclout), was very active on the board, specializing in that field, and I asked him a TON of questions. I absorbed everything I could about it. Now, while I don't consider myself an expert, I have become educated in the field and feel very comfortable researching, purchasing, and even giving advice about vintage photography. Plus, there is still more to learn.

The best piece of advice for you and all the others that are considering entering into autograph collecting is to study. Learn all you can, before you spend the big bucks. There are plenty of knowledgeable and helpful autograph people around to help you learn and plenty of good dealers around to allow you to buy in the safest way possible.

Jimmy,
It was what you said, not how strongly you said it that concerned myself and others. You stated that the COA people will "work with you." This implies that they might pass an auto that isn't good to get your return business.

As a card guy, think of it like this. Supposed I came to the card side and told someone who was new to cards that they should submit a 52 Mantle, that everyone here states is fake, to a PSA, etc anyway. I go on to advise that they should have submitted it to the TPAs first, instead of asking opinions here, because hey PSA/SGC/etc want your return business, so they might "work with you." Don't you think I would get eaten alive by the card guys for suggesting this? Don't you think the implication that it if, somehow, the TPAs did slab the fake card, which we all know has happened, for that person, that it would be OK for them to sell because the TPAs slabbed it, would be met with harsh opinions from all the guys on that side? (What are we East[cards] and West Germany[memorabilia]?)

Best,
Mark