Babe Ruth Ban Johnson Ball

[Mr. Zipper]

A forgery is by definition an unauthorized reproduction that is created for fraudulent purposes.

A proxy signature (clubhouse / secretarial) is an authorized reproduction that emanated from a source known by the intended signer.

With historical material (and most other genres of collecting), there is always a clear distinction between forgery and proxy. The terms are not used interchangeably.

Not sure what it is about the sports crowd, but we have seen this same discussion here numerous times where some insist forgery and proxy are one and the same. Perhaps they both have an equivalent level of desirability to some (zero), but that does not make them the same. Words matter.

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

A forgery is by definition an unauthorized reproduction that is created for fraudulent purposes.

A proxy signature (clubhouse / secretarial) is an authorized reproduction that emanated from a source known by the intended signer.

With historical material (and most other genres of collecting), there is always a clear distinction between forgery and proxy. The terms are not used interchangeably.

Not sure what it is about the sports crowd, but we have seen this same discussion here numerous times where some insist forgery and proxy are one and the same. Perhaps they both have an equivalent level of desirability to some (zero), but that does not make them the same. Words matter.

Just my opinion, I'm familiar with both terms. For me an auto in the hand of anyone other than the person implied is an imposter/ forgery.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

A forgery is by definition an unauthorized reproduction that is created for fraudulent purposes.

A proxy signature (clubhouse / secretarial) is an authorized reproduction that emanated from a source known by the intended signer.

With historical material (and most other genres of collecting), there is always a clear distinction between forgery and proxy. The terms are not used interchangeably.

Not sure what it is about the sports crowd, but we have seen this same discussion here numerous times where some insist forgery and proxy are one and the same. Perhaps they both have an equivalent level of desirability to some (zero), but that does not make them the same. Words matter.

+1

It's surprising how many collectors can't grasp the difference or don't care, even when it's spelled out very clearly as you have done. But I guess that is why forgers can get away with adding their work to team balls - worst that can happen is the AH describes them as secretarial, and collectors who don't care about the difference buy them as such. Best case is JSA or PSA authenticates them as real.

[shelly]

Ok I really did not want to bring this up. Most of you know ball players are sent cards to be signed and then placed into a pack. I know for a fact that one of those players had his brother sign all the cards.
What would you call that. I think Ken Golden has heard about this as well.
Remember these cards are being sold as being an authentic autograph.

[SikSyko]

Originally Posted by shelly

Ok I really did not want to bring this up. Most of you know ball players are sent cards to be signed and then placed into a pack. I know for a fact that one of those players had his brother sign all the cards.
What would you call that. I think Ken Golden has heard about this as well.
Remember these cards are being sold as being an authentic autograph.

I was told by an NHL player who played in the mid to late 90's that Classic gave him a bunch of cards to sign at the draft. It was him, his girlfriend and a few friends signing them in the hotel room. There is 6 of them on eBay right now.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Nyygameused

Just my opinion, I'm familiar with both terms. For me an auto in the hand of anyone other than the person implied is an imposter/ forgery.

And, of course, your opinion is just as good as fact.

We live in a country where stupidity and ignorance are prized, and an education is something to be derided. It's no wonder then that one would continually, consciously, and most of all, proudly, ignore important distinctions.

[Nyygameused]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

And, of course, your opinion is just as good as fact.

We live in a country where stupidity and ignorance are prized, and an education is something to be derided. It's no wonder then that one would continually, consciously, and most of all, proudly, ignore important distinctions.

David I respect you as a collector, and would hope you value my opinion as much as I'd value yours. I'm just not a fan of the term "clubhouse" if a signature is not authentic, it's not authentic. Just one mans point of view, I am not attempting to persuade anyone to think alike.

[Nyygameused]

Hostility runs rampant on this forum I see

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by shelly

Ok I really did not want to bring this up. Most of you know ball players are sent cards to be signed and then placed into a pack. I know for a fact that one of those players had his brother sign all the cards.
What would you call that. I think Ken Golden has heard about this as well.
Remember these cards are being sold as being an authentic autograph.

The signature is a proxy.

However, the player committed fraud if he entered into a contract to provide authentic autographs, and he provided proxy signatures instead.

[Shoeless Moe]

How much was the seller asking for it?

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

The signature is a proxy.

However, the player committed fraud if he entered into a contract to provide authentic autographs, and he provided proxy signatures instead.

Now it is proxy. He did just what other players have done over the years. They where paid to sign and they had some one else do there job. If you want some of the most famous players in the history of sports to go to jail I am with you. Let us throw HOF baseball football and basketball players in for fraud.

What if I where to tell you that the company knew that it happened and did nothing. I know for a fact at least a dozen or more players did what I said. It was a joke. Just like auto companys cheaper to let people die than to spend the money to what is right.
People own autographs signed from sisters brothers and friends. They belive there authentic because companys say they are good.
Just remember the HBO special. One card sold for 80,000 dollars because UD said it was good.