The Actual Top 20 Lifetime HR Leaders (OT)

[Piratedogcardshows]

On another note. I suppose Steve Carlton is still the career leader in K's since the top three on the list more than likely used roids.

[GregMitch34]

You care to cite Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson evidence on steroids?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Koufax had frequent injections of cortisone (a steroid) in his elbow. Is it different when a doctor prescribes it?

[MattyC]

The "evidence" presented in this thread against Griffey is just not at all impressive and convincing. Seriously, if that's all the logic and proof one needs to smear someone's achievements, why watch any pro baseball after the mid 1980's? It's a bitter, cynical, and unfortunate prism through which to view things.

So, a spike in the roid era means roid usage. But a spike before the known steroid era means clean and earned achievement? As any player will concede, there were always performance enhancers of one type or another in each era, things players took for "an edge." So let's just be fair and not consider players from a past era sacrosanct and divine, and anyone with a spike in the steroid era guilty. It should still come down to innocent until proven guilty, and mere suspicion cannot be enough to erase someone from the record books. This does mean some guilty but unproven parties will skate, but better that than an innocent party be ruined by mere suspicion alone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Griffey's career had a pretty normal trajectory. Wouldn't you expect him to peak in his late 20s?

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Griffey's career had a pretty normal trajectory. Wouldn't you expect him to peak in his late 20s?

I'm with you all the way on that one, Peter.

[ksabet]

I am on the other side of this argument. I am a little bit younger but I still never understood the lack of acceptance in the evolution of sports. I have always felt athletes should be judged based on how they played against others of the same era. It is impossible to compare Ruth to Bonds PEDs or not.

Should we come up with a list of pre 162 games home run leaders as well? Or categorize every time the mound was changed or every time strike zone was altered. Maybe we should figure out the true home run leaders based on their home ball parks.

PEDs was part of the game for a while whether we like it or not.

[GregMitch34]

By your logic all players are equally suspect--whether in an era where massive enhancers such as steroids and HGH not known to be used to an era where we know it was rampant? No difference, right?

As for cortisone as a PED--that's laughable. Just seems like a desperate attempt to defend players from recent years.

As for Griffey--I never said there was any strong evidence. On the other hand, those who say there's no chance, absolutely, may be going too far.

[glynparson]

I always find this funny cheating has was and always will be a part of professional sports. If just popping a pill made one an all star why are so many also rans and bench warmers getting caught. Non of this bothers me as much as acting like guys competing against just a segment of the population makes them some how superior.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I always find this funny cheating has was and always will be a part of professional sports. If just popping a pill made one an all star why are so many also rans and bench warmers getting caught. Non of this bothers me as much as acting like guys competing against just a segment of the population makes them some how superior.

There was a really good SI article a few years ago, that related to this. Steroids didn't turn everyone into all stars, but it made a lot of players perform better - players who shouldn't have made the majors barely made it, keeping non-cheaters in the minors, which is what the article was about. Few were noticing the huge improvement of such players, because they ended up being lower-tier major leaguers;instead, everyone focused on good players who all of a sudden found unreal batting power.

[Runscott]

Also, you can get a hint of PED use by looking at 'before and after' photos of guys like Len Dykstra, Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa. I don't remember Griffey going through such a transition.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

There was a really good SI article a few years ago, that related to this. Steroids didn't turn everyone into all stars, but it made a lot of players perform better - players who shouldn't have made the majors barely made it, keeping non-cheaters in the minors, which is what the article was about. Few were noticing the huge improvement of such players, because they ended up being lower-tier major leaguers;instead, everyone focused on good players who all of a sudden found unreal batting power.

Scott- I've referred to this article about 3-4 times in other related threads, I'm glad someone else has read it. Don't want to retype the same words over and over, but the general stance I've had for years is that steroids have had a far more negative affect on marginal/fringe players than on stars and fans. Fans/media focus on stars because sacred records are being threatened, but I think many hundreds, if not thousands of fringe players' (and families) lives were greatly and negatively influenced by the widespread use of steriods in the minors/MLB... which I see as a result of Selig and Co's totally lax attitude toward the issue, while they were reaping benefits from the epic HR chase, etc.

You had the 20-40 men on man 40 rosters debating whether to use or not for sake of getting or keeping a job. This was made worse by knowledge that "the guy taking your job" is probably using. You also had guys like the author of that article, who never used but never made a big league roster. While he toiled in the minors, he saw many other marginal talents (guys originally throwing 85, but who'd added 10-12 MPH on their fastball in a single off season) blow right by him

There may be a lot of inflated stats/records up at the top of the steroid era's food chain.. and I agree, that really sucks.. but I think the fact that many many more guys at the lower end of the baseball food chain were robbed of their big league dream, and subsequent paychecks bothers me more.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

By your logic all players are equally suspect--whether in an era where massive enhancers such as steroids and HGH not known to be used to an era where we know it was rampant? No difference, right?

No, that's respectfully not my position. By my logic it just takes much more than mere elite performance in the steroid era to cast aspersion on a great player, as is the case with Griffey and some others.

I believe each era had its own performance enhancers, which gave those who took them an edge over those who did not. Amphetamines, for example, definitely improve performance; many took them in the pre-steroid era. I believe players who take officially banned substances should face the strictest punishments available.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

You care to cite Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson evidence on steroids?

I have the same proof you have to accuse some of the players you mentioned. Just a glance at some stats and a feeling.

Nolan Ryan had 1 200 inning season from Age 36-39
Nolan Ryan had 4 200 inning seasons from Age 40-43

Plus classic roid rage in the Ventura Fight!

The whole steroids make you recover from injuries quicker and get back on the field makes me think of Cal's consecutive games streak. But I digress.....

[clydepepper]

It is obvious that part of the discussion lends itself to a player's popularity.

However, very few would seriously consider a comparison between bonds* and RIPKEN or between Clemens* and RYAN to have any merit whatsoever.

And as far as the Ventura BEATDOWN w/ NUGGIES, Nolan is an active rancher and was just channeling his other work skills.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Randy Johnson was only a slightly above average pitcher until he turned 28 or so and then had a spectacular rise which lasted to a ripe old age. So let's convict him too.

[clydepepper]

Right after his famous meeting with Nolan Ryan....hmmm....LOL