The Actual Top 20 Lifetime HR Leaders (OT)

[GregMitch34]

By your logic all players are equally suspect--whether in an era where massive enhancers such as steroids and HGH not known to be used to an era where we know it was rampant? No difference, right?

As for cortisone as a PED--that's laughable. Just seems like a desperate attempt to defend players from recent years.

As for Griffey--I never said there was any strong evidence. On the other hand, those who say there's no chance, absolutely, may be going too far.

[glynparson]

I always find this funny cheating has was and always will be a part of professional sports. If just popping a pill made one an all star why are so many also rans and bench warmers getting caught. Non of this bothers me as much as acting like guys competing against just a segment of the population makes them some how superior.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I always find this funny cheating has was and always will be a part of professional sports. If just popping a pill made one an all star why are so many also rans and bench warmers getting caught. Non of this bothers me as much as acting like guys competing against just a segment of the population makes them some how superior.

There was a really good SI article a few years ago, that related to this. Steroids didn't turn everyone into all stars, but it made a lot of players perform better - players who shouldn't have made the majors barely made it, keeping non-cheaters in the minors, which is what the article was about. Few were noticing the huge improvement of such players, because they ended up being lower-tier major leaguers;instead, everyone focused on good players who all of a sudden found unreal batting power.

[Runscott]

Also, you can get a hint of PED use by looking at 'before and after' photos of guys like Len Dykstra, Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa. I don't remember Griffey going through such a transition.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

There was a really good SI article a few years ago, that related to this. Steroids didn't turn everyone into all stars, but it made a lot of players perform better - players who shouldn't have made the majors barely made it, keeping non-cheaters in the minors, which is what the article was about. Few were noticing the huge improvement of such players, because they ended up being lower-tier major leaguers;instead, everyone focused on good players who all of a sudden found unreal batting power.

Scott- I've referred to this article about 3-4 times in other related threads, I'm glad someone else has read it. Don't want to retype the same words over and over, but the general stance I've had for years is that steroids have had a far more negative affect on marginal/fringe players than on stars and fans. Fans/media focus on stars because sacred records are being threatened, but I think many hundreds, if not thousands of fringe players' (and families) lives were greatly and negatively influenced by the widespread use of steriods in the minors/MLB... which I see as a result of Selig and Co's totally lax attitude toward the issue, while they were reaping benefits from the epic HR chase, etc.

You had the 20-40 men on man 40 rosters debating whether to use or not for sake of getting or keeping a job. This was made worse by knowledge that "the guy taking your job" is probably using. You also had guys like the author of that article, who never used but never made a big league roster. While he toiled in the minors, he saw many other marginal talents (guys originally throwing 85, but who'd added 10-12 MPH on their fastball in a single off season) blow right by him

There may be a lot of inflated stats/records up at the top of the steroid era's food chain.. and I agree, that really sucks.. but I think the fact that many many more guys at the lower end of the baseball food chain were robbed of their big league dream, and subsequent paychecks bothers me more.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Scott- I've referred to this article about 3-4 times in other related threads, I'm glad someone else has read it.

I don't subscribe to SI, but always read it when I'm at the doctor or dentist. I read most of it before I went in, then went back out and read the remainder. It was really eye-opening.

Regarding guys like Piazza - my guess is that the HOF voters know more than most of us do, regarding PED use. I think that if a deserving guy was clean, he'll get in. And PLEASE don't accuse me of having too positive of an outlook on human nature.

[GregMitch34]

Maris's 61 partly explained by expansion teams that year--see other AL dingers that year......and Norm Cash hit .360 or something....

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Maris's 61 partly explained by expansion teams that year--see other AL dingers that year......and Norm Cash hit .360 or something....

Cash admitted using a corked bat that season - and detailed his process for corking the bat in a Sports Illustrated article.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Maris's 61 partly explained by expansion teams that year--see other AL dingers that year......and Norm Cash hit .360 or something....

Any NL batting records set when the Mets and Colts were added? This seems an unlikely explanation to me. I think he just had a career year, and it didn't hurt that it was impossible to pitch around him.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

By your logic all players are equally suspect--whether in an era where massive enhancers such as steroids and HGH not known to be used to an era where we know it was rampant? No difference, right?

No, that's respectfully not my position. By my logic it just takes much more than mere elite performance in the steroid era to cast aspersion on a great player, as is the case with Griffey and some others.

I believe each era had its own performance enhancers, which gave those who took them an edge over those who did not. Amphetamines, for example, definitely improve performance; many took them in the pre-steroid era. I believe players who take officially banned substances should face the strictest punishments available.