1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG

[oaks1912]

Ted... The version you have (Type 2) is most likely cut down from an advertising sheet, as there is no printing along the bottom margin... The 'proofs' (for lack of a better term) more closely resemble the insert cards (Type 1) as illustrated on Borchers. The difference is the paper stock. Type 1's are similar to E-120 / E-121 while the Type 3 "proofs" are more similar to Cracker Jack / Mello Mints. To my knowledge only one group (appx 31 different) has entered the hobby, originating from a very large find of paper ephemera which was originally collected in San Francisco between the 1880's and the 1910's. This collection entered the hobby back in the late 70's. The last time I saw them Terry Knouse was offering them for sale.

[oldjudge]

I agree with Mark. The "proofs" you refer to were just trimmed from a poster. They have some value, but much less than an issued card.

[ullmandds]

i would say the value is debatable as the scarcity is somewhat of an equalizer..but I also agree that they are not "proofs."

[oldjudge]

Pete--supply is only one side of the equation. What is trimmed off a poster is less valuable than actually issued cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Pete--supply is only one side of the equation. What is trimmed off a poster is less valuable than actually issued cards.

I can definitively argue that the demand side of the equation is more important than the supply side in determining value. And no doubt most, if not all, poster cuts are less valuable than cards, in my experience (too).

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

I can definitively argue that the demand side of the equation is more important than the supply side in determining value. And no doubt most, if not all, poster cuts are less valuable than cards, in my experience (too).

I agree...but perhaps not forever.

[tedzan]

OK guys......after several iterations, SGC got it correct on my S. F. Hess J. Smith card............



1st label








2nd label Proof (incorrect)






Final label Type 2 (correct)






TED Z
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Still looking for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by oaks1912

Ted... The version you have (Type 2) is most likely cut down from an advertising sheet, as there is no printing along the bottom margin... The 'proofs' (for lack of a better term) more closely resemble the insert cards (Type 1) as illustrated on Borchers. The difference is the paper stock. Type 1's are similar to E-120 / E-121 while the Type 3 "proofs" are more similar to Cracker Jack / Mello Mints. To my knowledge only one group (appx 31 different) has entered the hobby, originating from a very large find of paper ephemera which was originally collected in San Francisco between the 1880's and the 1910's. This collection entered the hobby back in the late 70's. The last time I saw them Terry Knouse was offering them for sale.

Mark Macrae and Dan Studebaker discussed this topic at length at our booth in Cleveland last week. I trust Mark's opinion on this card, so I had SGC re-label it as "Type 2".

Perhaps Mark will chime in here regarding this subject.



T-Rex TED
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

[oldjudge]

Ted--I understand what Mark is saying, but it makes no sense to assign a Type designation to something that is not a card, and something trimmed off a poster, with no comparable design on a card, ain't a card. Terry, I believe, started this mishegas (excuse the French) years ago. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

[wonkaticket]

I agree I think Mark, was simply using the term "Type 2" in regard to this thread and the pictured examples. Not stating that these items have a designation of "Type 2" N321's. I could be wrong but that's how I read the above...

[oldjudge]

Ted--here is a Type 2 N173 (or is it a Type 2 T206) LOL

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N173-Ol...item4184c8173f

[tedzan]

Again, I agree with you guys regarding "cut-outs" from (19th Century) A-type albums, or posters. I acquired this card which had
already been graded by SGC.

Perhaps, SGC should have qualified it, or perhaps SGC was not sure what it was ? ?

Anyhow, I'll leave it to Mark for further discussion on this subject.


Hey guys, as most of you know, I do not care for graded cards. To me, it's a nice looking "type card" (excuse the pun). Therefore,
I may just free it from its "plastic prison" and let it "breath".

Like most of the cards in my collection



T-Rex TED
.

[Econteachert205]

My two cents is that the manufacturers intent matters, i.e. if the "cards" in question were made on a poster sheet with the design to be cut out or not. It appears from what I've read here that the intent was not to cut them out as stand alone items, meaning to me they are not cards. As for supply and demand, I always try to distinguish degrees of needs vs. wants. It's all wants for me except t205's which of course are serious business

[tedzan]

......back in the early 1990's, I picked up a lot of 26 Allen & Ginter "cards" which included the 10 BB players (Anson, Comiskey, Keefe, Kelly, etc.)
in the N28 set. It was immediately obvious that these pieces were not the original N28 cards. But, were most likely cut out of the Allen & Ginter
album. They sold very quickly, since I priced them reasonably. You could say they were the "poor man's" version of the originals. Shown here is
an additional one of these of Monte Ward.





Similarly, such "cards" have been cut out of the GOODWIN CHAMPIONS (A36) album**. Collectors are willing to acquire these more affordable
pieces, since the actual cards have become very expensive. Furthermore, they are Circa 1888.





In either event, grading company's (GC) will probably grade them. For example, this practice is no different than GC grading and labeling "cards"
that appear to look like the original 1947 BOND BREAD issue....however, these "cards" were issued several years later.


Note **....I really cannot imagine anyone destroying these beautiful 19th Century albums by cutting out the BB images from them.
But, it has occurred.


TED Z
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Still looking for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.