OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I looked at all Hall of Fame pitchers that have thrown over 1,000 innings in their career between 1880 and 2014. There are 66 pitchers. I then looked at their ERA +. Kaat's ERA+ is 108. His ERA + would be the 6th worst out of all Major League Hall of Fame pitchers.

I then looked at career WAR. Kaat's 45.3 WAR would be 15th worst.

Next, I looked at career WHIP. Kaat would be 17th worst.

I really like that you are considering how an 'average' HOF'er performed, as opposed to the worst HOF'er for each stat. Too many people would say: "So his WAR is higher than 14 current HOF'ers, his WHIP is better than 16 HOF'ers and his ERA is better than 5 current HOF'ers - obviously, he should be in the HOF."

But I really do like Kaat - out of all the less-than-great-but-better-than-average players in Twins history, and they seem to have more than any other franchise, Kaat and Oliva are at the top.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Niekro didn't get a lot of Cy Young votes either.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Niekro didn't get a lot of Cy Young votes either.

Neither did Cy Young

[byrone]

I'd go with Joe Wood, Lefty O'Doul and Thurman Munson

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by byrone

I'd go with Joe Wood, Lefty O'Doul and Thurman Munson

Smoky Joe is a tough case. He was a legit HOF'er as a pitcher until he got hurt - a career 147 ERA+ guy. But...too many partial seasons and only two 20-win seasons in an era when every top guy won 20 every year. As a hitter, he was good but not great - and really only played two years. Just not enough on the resume to be a HOFer but there's no doubt he was a legitimately great player.

Lefty O'Doul - I don't care that his career was short. I don't care that he played in the offense-inflated 1930s. You hit .349 for your career with two batting titles AND some power? You're in.

Thurman Munson - Munson, to me, is in the Hall of Very Good. I think he needed a couple more good or great years to be a HOFer. And, even without the plane crash, he wasn't going to have those.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Lefty O'Doul - I don't care that his career was short. I don't care that he played in the offense-inflated 1930s. You hit .349 for your career with two batting titles AND some power? You're in.

Plus he's a huge reason there's baseball in Japan still, and by association, probably why there's baseball in Korea and other parts of Asia. Had a long storied career as player and manager in the PCL too.

Separately, someone referred to Chuck Klein's home/away splits. O'Doul's home stats in Philly were better, but he still raked on the road.

IMO, he should definitely be in.

Re- Ripken and snopes, the story has evolved over the years. An older version was that Costner was at a celebrity golf tournament during the day with Ripken and his wife. Ripken left for the ballpark, but forgot he needed something at home so went there only to find Costner with his wife. The rest of the snopes story holds to the version I'd heard. 10-15 years ago this was being told as gospel in minor league (and apparently some major league) clubhouses. I heard it from a guy who I think made it double A in the Orioles organization and he told it with certainty. Several other buddies of mine heard different versions separately from friends in both the minors and majors around the same time. Snopes doesn't agree, but it was really fun to hear it.. And to believe it back then.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are some funny anecdotes about O'Doul in Gay Talese's great mid 60s profile of DiMaggio, "Silent Season of a Hero." Apparently he was one of the few people in DiMaggio's inner circle at that time. In one of them they go to a charitable event which they were expecting to be a big deal, it turns out to be some old ladies singing in a remote church, DiMaggio is being gracious and chatting with the ladies and O'Doul is muttering under his breath "how the *&^% did you get us into this?"

[howard38]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Plus he's a huge reason there's baseball in Japan still, and by association, probably why there's baseball in Korea and other parts of Asia. Had a long storied career as player and manager in the PCL too.

Separately, someone referred to Chuck Klein's home/away splits. O'Doul's home stats in Philly were better, but he still raked on the road.

IMO, he should definitely be in.

Re- Ripken and snopes, the story has evolved over the years. An older version was that Costner was at a celebrity golf tournament during the day with Ripken and his wife. Ripken left for the ballpark, but forgot he needed something at home so went there only to find Costner with his wife. The rest of the snopes story holds to the version I'd heard. 10-15 years ago this was being told as gospel in minor league (and apparently some major league) clubhouses. I heard it from a guy who I think made it double A in the Orioles organization and he told it with certainty. Several other buddies of mine heard different versions separately from friends in both the minors and majors around the same time. Snopes doesn't agree, but it was really fun to hear it.. And to believe it back then.

O'Doul only played two years for the Phillies. His BA for the rest of his career was .332 so he surely could rake.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by howard38

O'Doul only played two years for the Phillies. His BA for the rest of his career was .332 so he surely could rake.

My point exactly. Was just pre-empting any possible Baker Bowl arguments.

Let's get him in!!!!

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Niekro didn't get a lot of Cy Young votes either.

He finished 2nd in '69, 3rd in '74, 6th in '78 and '79 and 5th in '82. Much better than Kaat.