The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And that's exactly what criminals like Bill Mastro think when they're engaging in their fraud: 'they want the card anyway, why is shilling it up a problem?' Hell, Bill still thinks that and he's cooperating with the Feds against other criminals in our hobby.

Jeff- I went back and re-read a statement I made in this thread and want to amend it here. I said to "just put a bid/snipe in and be done with it." I think that is still the case but it doesn't mean I WANT to pay that much if I don't need to, in a legal auction setting. I am not condoning, what looks to be, the fraud that we see going on with the bidding patterns and id's. I am not OK with getting ripped off. If I inadvertently stated otherwise then that was a mistake. If we see fraud going on then it is for the good of the hobby to expose it. Please keep doing what you are doing, but be nice .

[Sean1125]

[drcy]

I don't think there are easy answers, especially when applying to the real world. I think there can be compromise and things are rarely black and white and the real world situations can be complex. If all pants makers are unethical, I don't expect you to walk around without pants. Realize I grew up in the Northern Midwest and it can get chilly here in Seattle too. I don't rank every misdemeanor as a felony, nor do I expect people to be Saints (Though, to be candid, I expect people to be good people. Sorry, but I don't give excuses for stealing money from honest people or lying in auction descriptions. Use your rationalizations on someone else).

But, while I think one's ethics can sometimes justifiably be compromised on occasion ("All food makers are unethical in some way, but I actually have to eat and already have a full time job and can't start my own farm. I have to make some sort of practical compromise"), if all it takes to toss out one's ethics is to get a kid's baseball card, that's pretty sad. If there is a is god as commonly described, I would imagine he doesn't forgive your sins because they were done in the pursuit of gathering baseball cards.

And I'm not telling you what your ethics should be. I'm not saying I have the universal definition and here is what the are. But, for a starting point, you should know what are your ethical beliefs. And you know what is right and wrong by your definitions and you should be aware when you are breaking your rules in the of baseball cards. You know when you are really just rationalizing, if to yourself more even than to others. You know when you are manipulating definitions to meet your card collecting aims.

You don't have to argue to me your points. You don't have to convince me of anything. You don't have to convince me that this or that offense is really just an ethical parking ticket not a felony, and you more than make up for it by being good to your family and giving to charity. But you should have the discussion with yourself. And, in the end, if you are breaking your personal ethical rules but honestly believe it's justifiable in the pursuit of baseball cards, that's the way it is. The discussion was with yourself, and my and others' opinions and belief systems are neither here nor there. We weren't even in the room to hear your points, much less offer opinions on them.

P.s. Don't call me holier than thou after I said my personal belief system was neither here nor there.

P.s.s. Or at least have the decency to say it behind my back and not to my face.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve yes you could by Socratic method push even the most ethical person to the point where he would have to admit that he is not being completely pure or consistent. But so what? That doesn't undercut the legitimacy of taking the obvious step of foregoing card purchases from known or strongly suspected fraudsters. It's like Robert Bork allegedly said -- just because there is a slippery slope doesn't mean you have to ski it to the bottom.

[nolemmings]

or someone like Todd who joins a fray just to pile-on because of past disagreements

I would ask you what the hell you are talking about, but that might imply I care.

[Runscott]

...

[nolemmings]

Oh you clever little bird--you know me so well. Blather on.

[Runscott]

...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steve yes you could by Socratic method push even the most ethical person to the point where he would have to admit that he is not being completely pure or consistent. But so what? That doesn't undercut the legitimacy of taking the obvious step of foregoing card purchases from known or strongly suspected fraudsters. It's like Robert Bork allegedly said -- just because there is a slippery slope doesn't mean you have to ski it to the bottom.

All true.

The comment I made that we started on was someone elses about having no contact at all with questionable sellers, and was more about where does one draw the line. Obviously someone known to shill or alter or both regularly should be avoided. Someone who essentially condones it by letting it slide maybe is a little less obvious. And Of course Ebay appears to condone if not encourage all sorts of misbehavior.

Which path is the one avoiding the slippery slope?
Certainly not buying from obvious scammers is reasonable.
Either avoiding or being careful with auctions from the big consignment places that don't look too closely at some bidders?
Abandoning Ebay entirely?

The last doesn't seem reasonable.


There's a lot of slippery slopes, it just seems odd to me at times that nearly all of us (Myself included) choose which to ski down based on how inconvenient it would be to avoid it.


As an aside, Does Bork ski? Since 1975, I've only ever walked off two slopes. Both times I was pretty certain that continuing would get me seriously hurt. But both times it was sort of embarrassing.

Times like this I really do wish I was better at writing.

Steve B

[drcy]

William F. Buckley once joked that he saw liberal Harvard economist John Kenneth Galbraith cross country skiing and Galbraith's skiing skills matched the competency of his economic theories.

[packs]

No opinion on his selling habits but I have noticed that Probstein has stopped putting his user name in the photos of his items.