Paypal Family and Friends Payment Problem Anyone else??

[whiteymet]

Hi Guys:

I am the OP. I will try to answer/clarify what has been posted/asked here. Sorry I am answering late. I am not on here everyday and I have not been getting instant email notifications as I signed up for. Only received one notice after the first reply. Nothing since.

The payment was most certainly through F&F's. The buyer instigated the payment through F&F's I did not for example send him an invoice. I don't even know if this is possible with F&F.

I did request the payment be made through F&F.

The buyer is NOT a board member as far as I know.

I too thought he jumped the gun in starting the process with paypal. The package arrived at a unit near him. He has visited the unit, asked questions etc. but so far no package. He panicked. The stuff inside is worth about $2K. When I said to him I thought he could have waited a while longer, his response was:

So is it early?? Could be ... But honestly the situation is very disappointing. I called PayPal and advised the situation as I was ensuring what the protocol would be....PayPal agreed that a case was in my best interest.

I too thought F&F had no or not much recourse for the "buyer". But IF they told him to start a case who knows. There is insurance on the package, but who knows if the P.O. will pay off or not. I have heard horror stories about that and establishing value etc.

I have no interest in screwing the guy. If the package is lost I would repay him the insurance, but in the meantime he has $2K of my $$ tied up.

And what happens if the P.O. does pay out and the package arrives months later?

Another question. Who should start the insurance process? The seller or the buyer? The buyer paid for the insurance, so should I send him the receipts and he deals with the P.O. gets the payout etc. or is the onus on the seller?

I await your responses!

Thanks,

Fred

[Sean1125]

F and f is at your own risk. To put it bluntly you are an IDIOT if you accept a gift that isn't blank (refund it and demand a blank payment or take it normal). You should never send a gift that is not blank....I refuse and refund if someone does not trust enough to send blank.

I need to put together a paypal guide for the forum. Its simple if you don't trust the person don't pay with a gift. I will try my best tomorrow.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

F and f is at your own risk. To put it bluntly you are an IDIOT if you accept a gift that isn't blank (refund it and demand a blank payment or take it normal). You should never send a gift that is not blank....I refuse and refund if someone does not trust enough to send blank.

I need to put together a paypal guide for the forum. Its simple if you don't trust the person don't pay with a gift. I will try my best tomorrow.

Looking forward to your "guide" and an explanation of what BLANK is.

There was not a matter of trust in this transaction. The problem only arose when the P.O. "lost" the package. BTW I was the RECIPIENT of the F&F payment, so I did not pay with a gift as you reference. But I guess that makes me an IDIOT to accept the payment that I requested.

[UnVme7]

I don't have a problem with personal payments, but I think you have to be careful. If you have a lot of transactions this way, it triggers paypal and they will make it so you can never do that again. I think...

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

I don't have a problem with personal payments, but I think you have to be careful. If you have a lot of transactions this way, it triggers paypal and they will make it so you can never do that again. I think...

I have nearly 100% F&F transactions, I simply do it correctly. Again, will expand in the near future and write a 'guide' that should protect both buyers and sellers assuming they follow it in full.

[glchen]

You can still use a credit card when using paypal and F&F. Therefore, the buyer can still initiate a credit card bank chargeback to paypal, where paypal will lose the funds. This is probably why Paypal accepted the case, and is tying up the seller's paypal funds.

[MyGuyTy]

Originally Posted by glchen

You can still use a credit card when using paypal and F&F. Therefore, the buyer can still initiate a credit card bank chargeback to paypal, where paypal will lose the funds. This is probably why Paypal accepted the case, and is tying up the seller's paypal funds.

This is most likely the case and most logical. Now if he paid via PP balance, I'm back to being at a loss as to why PP would take up this case in the first place.

[MyGuyTy]

This is all still so bizarre that PayPal would even ENTERTAIN a complaint via F&F for a purchase of goods. They just got cheated out of $60 in fees because the buyer chose to skate around their system and send the money via F&F and now they're gonna take up the hassle of his complaint and have to deal with both of you getting upset and lodging complaints on what has transpired?? If I was PayPal I would have sent a response to both of you basically stating why trying to "cheat the system" via F&F to avoid fees for the sale of goods is prohibited and in essence an unprotected gamble on both of your parts.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Looking forward to your "guide" and an explanation of what BLANK is.

There was not a matter of trust in this transaction. The problem only arose when the P.O. "lost" the package. BTW I was the RECIPIENT of the F&F payment, so I did not pay with a gift as you reference. But I guess that makes me an IDIOT to accept the payment that I requested.

If you aren't comfortable with the seller refunding you should something happen (ie: trust the seller to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances) then don't pay a method that is supposed to 'unrefundable'. It's that simple. There is nothing more to it. F&F Should be considered handing someone cash assuming and hoping they will do the right thing - nothing more, nothing less.

I will banter more tomorrow.

Sean

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

If you aren't comfortable with the seller refunding you should something happen (ie: trust the seller to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances) then don't pay a method that is supposed to 'unrefundable'. It's that simple. There is nothing more to it. F&F Should be considered handing someone cash assuming and hoping they will do the right thing - nothing more, nothing less.

I will banter more tomorrow.

Sean

Sean:

AGAIN. I am the SELLER. As I said in the above I am the RECIPIENT. The BUYER who paid ME through F&F has not received the package and has filed with paypal and has put a hold on my $$

I look forward to your banter

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Sean:

AGAIN. I am the SELLER. As I said in the above I am the RECIPIENT. The BUYER who paid ME through F&F has not received the package and has filed with paypal and has put a hold on my $$

I look forward to your banter

Out the buyer... What Mr. Chen said is correct - the only real way to recall F&F is to initiate a credit card charge back. That is not a case that can ever be won. I recently lost one even though I did everything to paypals exact standards (shipped correctly, uploaded tracking correctly etc). If the buyer calls up their credit card company and tells them that they didn't make the transaction then the selling party is SOL.

Did theirs specifically say it was for goods or was the payment made completely blank (basic fields, nothing typed). I have a feeling if they were able to file a normal case then they may not have payed F&F - just regular and covered the fees on their end (this is possible). I would need to actually physically see the payment details on Paypal to help out much further.

[glchen]

I've unfortunately been involved in a number of charge back and ebay/paypal issues these days, but very luckily have managed to land right side up for them so far.

For the issue in this case, from my experience (not sure what happened in Sean's), you can still win your case as long as your item shows delivered to the customer w/ his signature. You will have 21 business days from the day the item was shipped for the package to be delivered (or at least attemped delivery). Hopefully if the Post Office doesn't screw up here, you'll be okay in the end.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

Out the buyer... What Mr. Chen said is correct - the only real way to recall F&F is to initiate a credit card charge back. That is not a case that can ever be won. I recently lost one even though I did everything to paypals exact standards (shipped correctly, uploaded tracking correctly etc). If the buyer calls up their credit card company and tells them that they didn't make the transaction then the selling party is SOL.

Did theirs specifically say it was for goods or was the payment made completely blank (basic fields, nothing typed). I have a feeling if they were able to file a normal case then they may not have payed F&F - just regular and covered the fees on their end (this is possible). I would need to actually physically see the payment details on Paypal to help out much further.

Sean:

The buyer did say what the payment was for in the message section. I do not know if he paid by CC or checking account or paypal balance. You said if you saw the payment details you could help. See below. I have redacted the buyers name my email and the description of the items sold and the transaction ID #.

Mobile Payment Received (Unique Transaction ID # )




Original Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
Apr 25, 2014 Payment From Held ... $2,000.00 USD $0.00 USD $2,000.00 USD


Related Transaction
Date Type Status Details Gross Fee Net
May 5, 2014 The funds are not available while this transaction is being reviewed Placed We'll complete the refund as soon as your original payment is processed by the bank.
We'll complete the refund as soon as your original payment is processed by the bank. Details -$2,000.00 USD $0.00 USD -$2,000.00 USD
Total: $0.00 USD $0.00 USD $0.00 USD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sent by:
(The sender of this payment is Verified)
Payment sent to:


Total amount:
$2,000.00 USD
Fee amount:
$0.00 USD
Net amount:
$2,000.00 USD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:
Apr 25, 2014
Time:
16:18:31 PDT
Status:
Held

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Hi Guys:

I am the OP. I will try to answer/clarify what has been posted/asked here. Sorry I am answering late. I am not on here everyday and I have not been getting instant email notifications as I signed up for. Only received one notice after the first reply. Nothing since.

The payment was most certainly through F&F's. The buyer instigated the payment through F&F's I did not for example send him an invoice. I don't even know if this is possible with F&F.

I did request the payment be made through F&F.

The buyer is NOT a board member as far as I know.

I too thought he jumped the gun in starting the process with paypal. The package arrived at a unit near him. He has visited the unit, asked questions etc. but so far no package. He panicked. The stuff inside is worth about $2K. When I said to him I thought he could have waited a while longer, his response was:

So is it early?? Could be ... But honestly the situation is very disappointing. I called PayPal and advised the situation as I was ensuring what the protocol would be....PayPal agreed that a case was in my best interest.

I too thought F&F had no or not much recourse for the "buyer". But IF they told him to start a case who knows. There is insurance on the package, but who knows if the P.O. will pay off or not. I have heard horror stories about that and establishing value etc.

I have no interest in screwing the guy. If the package is lost I would repay him the insurance, but in the meantime he has $2K of my $$ tied up.

And what happens if the P.O. does pay out and the package arrives months later?

Another question. Who should start the insurance process? The seller or the buyer? The buyer paid for the insurance, so should I send him the receipts and he deals with the P.O. gets the payout etc. or is the onus on the seller?

I await your responses!

Thanks,

Fred

The seller should still have all of the insurance info. Have him give it to you so you can go to the PO with it. I had this happen with a bat that was stolen(or had fallen out but you be the judge) out of the bat tube and luckily the guy put insurance on it. The PO did in fact pay me and really, it was pretty easy actually.

But you're right, the item could show up several weeks later. Exact same thing happened again with a bat falling out. Received an empty bat tube and had to contact the PO to turn in a lost item giving them a description. Sure enough, about a month later the bat was found and shipped to me wrapped in brown paper by the PO. Shocked it actually showed up since it was a Winfield used bat with his name right there on the barrel, bright as day. I thought for sure it was a goner. Anyways, that was an EBay transaction that the guy had to give me my money back. Then it showed up and I went ahead and paid him right back, which I didn't have to do but obviously did.

So yes, an item/package could be found weeks/months later and shipped to the buyer even if the buyer already got a refund. Definitely happens, but hopefully the buyer does the right thing in this instance.

[whiteymet]

Where on the paypal website does it say you can not use F&F to purchase goods? I have not found it.

Actually I found this:

Requesting Payments and Money Online - PayPal
... Friends or family. This is for a good or service Free for you. ... You're also covered by our Purchase Protection. Goods or services. Business. ...


Is F&F considered a Direct Payment?

I also found this on the paypal website:

PayPal User Agreement


Even if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection, you can file a Dispute and try to resolve the issue directly with the Seller; however, PayPal will generally not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim for an item which is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.

[MyGuyTy]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Where on the paypal website does it say you can not use F&F to purchase goods? I have not found it.

Actually I found this:

Requesting Payments and Money Online - PayPal
... Friends or family. This is for a good or service Free for you. ... You're also covered by our Purchase Protection. Goods or services. Business. ...


Is F&F considered a Direct Payment?

I also found this on the paypal website:

PayPal User Agreement


Even if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection, you can file a Dispute and try to resolve the issue directly with the Seller; however, PayPal will generally not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim for an item which is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.

I've spoken directly to them before and was told F&F wasn't designed to be used for transactions of goods, it was a way of just sending money to FAMILY and FRIENDS and not have to pay fees to do it. But of course MANY people (and they know it) use F&F as a way to avoid fees on transactions for goods.

I guess I don't understand, why would they even have "fee portion" if F&F transactions for the sale of goods still entitles the buyer to all of the "protections"?? They're kinda contradicting themselves. And how is it basically known by everybody to "avoid F&F because of no protection" if PayPal supposedly protects every single fee skipping transaction? I'm confused on this aspect