The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think what T206 means is this, and I am writing this in the mind of a hypothetical buyer...

1. Here is a card I want.

2. Based on my budget, I'd be happy paying $100 for it.

3. Oh, it's at auction on ebay now? Cool. Let me check the auction real quick to see if any shilling's been going on. No? Okay, I will bid $100 for it, go about my life, and then get an email when the auction ends. I sure wish I could watch this auction like a hawk, but, you know, life.

4. 7 DAYS LATER... Great-- I won it for $100 (or less).

5. Now I will pay, receive the card, and enjoy the card.

6. But wait-- what if I was shilled, and could have paid less? Should I have taken time from my job to monitor the bidders' and their profiles, then have retracted my bid?

And what if that $100 I was okay paying was really subliminally influenced and placed in my mind as an okay price by past shills over the years-- and thus in a parallel universe the card is really worth $88.17?

Maybe I should invent the flux capacitor to go back and pass on that conference call or workout or sex with my wife or fun with my kids to stare at that bidding history. Or maybe I should quit my career and invent a portal to the shill-free dimension. (Just think of what I could charge for entry! I'm gonna be RICH!)

7. Ah, know what, I suck at this whole flux capacitor thing-- I'll just be happy with my card. It gives me such joy, and life presents far more pressing headaches. I do wish I had the time to watch auctions in which I am bidding like a hawk, and walk away anytime I sense the presence of a shill bidder, but that's just not the case. I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice, and I will definitely tell my collecting colleagues what happened to me, but I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection. I paid an amount I was okay with paying and am happy with my purchase. THE END.

Matt, not a bad effort, but replace step #3 with: "if the seller is a known shiller, don't bid"

and remove step #6

Regarding step #7, it sounds like this statement: "I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection" trumps this one: "I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice"

If you really mean what you say, then you'll simply avoid sellers who you feel are crooked; otherwise, you are rationalizing.

[drcy]

I've consigned on eBay. I consigned because I didn't want to do the work at the time (I hate billing, packaging, packaging tape, gong to the post office, etc--- and it was easier to ship it all at once to one seller) and the particular seller I consigned to was a respected dealer who got good prices due to his reputation and known knowledge (He used to work at a museum). Realize that I've never sold trading cards printed in the thousands that come encapsulated in plastic holders with identification label and bar code at top and that can be double checked on the PSA website and looked up in a price guide. I've consigned esoteric and rare items such as vintage autographed scorecards, unique postcards, antique movie posters, medals, original art and movie star awards, where buyers bid more when the seller is well known, they've had good experience and the seller is known as knowledgeable about what he sells. I thought he did a good job and I got fair prices, so I was willing to consign again.

And, whether or not you believe it, I never shilled. To be honest, the idea of shilling never even crossed my mind. Some people think everyone thinks about doing bad things even if they don't act upon it, but that's not true. For many people, that they could cheat or maim that person across the room or slip the tip on the next table into his pocket doesn't even cross their minds. It doesn't enter their thoughts. It's unethical people who think everyone is also unethical. The prices I got were the prices I got. Some stuff lots sold less than I wanted, but overall I was satisfied.

I also admit I can be lazy-- after all, I said I consigned in part to pass the work onto someone else. The point of consigning was not to give myself more work-- say, the work of setting up phony accounts, spending hours bidding, retracting bids and and following auctions. The point was I could be napping on the couch or sipping a Diet Coke in front of Gilligan's Island while work was being done.

And I admit I'm self centered enough to think I have more important things to do than wrapping packaging tape around boxes in my basement. We polymath supergeniuses think our time better spent solving the mysteries of the universe, writing the Great American Novel (the real one, not that hack Faulkner) and reinventing the wheel (I want something rounder).

"I didn't realize polymath supergeniuses watched Giligan's Island."
"Well now you know."
"And exactly how many polymath supergeniuses are there?"
"I heard there's another one in Estonia, but it's so far unconfirmed."

Reminds me of when someone asked Doctor Who what he was a doctor of, and he said "Most everything."

Or the HAL 9000-inpsired ship's computer on the classic BBC science fiction sit com Red Dwarf that said "My name is Holly and I have an iq of 6,000. That's the equivalent of 6,000 PE teachers." In another episode he said it was the equivalent of 6,000 car park attendants.

[MattyC]

Scott,

Actually, I do avoid auctions that I think are crooked. However I make this assessment on an auction by auction basis; I do not personally subscribe to the belief that the big ebay consignment sellers like Brent are doing the shilling. I think the owners of the cards are doing the shilling. That's my opinion alone. Now what the sellers can do to combat it, and whether or not they are doing enough, that's a whole different discussion.

Now as to the inference you are drawing, that the statement about not beating oneself up trumps the statement about shilling being abhorrent, that is how you are choosing to read into what I wrote. The two statements, for me, are in perfect balance. I can think shilling is criminal activity, call it out and avoid it when I see it-- and at the same time I can refuse to lose sleep over it, refuse to obsess over it, and refuse to scour the bidding activity of every auction like some hypothetical power nerd. For me, it's about balance-- being aware and proactive without crossing over into obsessive crusading that ruins hobby enjoyment.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Scott,

Actually, I do avoid auctions that I think are crooked. However I make this assessment on an auction by auction basis; I do not personally subscribe to the belief that the big ebay consignment sellers like Brent are doing the shilling. I think the owners of the cards are doing the shilling. That's my opinion alone. Now what the sellers can do to combat it, and whether or not they are doing enough, that's a whole different discussion.

To me, it is not a different discussion - whether the seller is shilling, or he is just permitting his consignors to do it, it has the same result. Just as the seller can decide not to shill, the seller can also decide that he won't allow his consignors to shill, and there are plenty of ways to accomplish that. There has been plenty of evidence in similar threads to this, to support the claim that sellers are aware of shilling and are not doing enough, and also that it would be fairly simple for them to locate consignors who are shilling, and get rid of them. But that would bust their business model.

Originally Posted by MattyC

I can think shilling is criminal activity, call it out and avoid it when I see it-- and at the same time I can refuse to lose sleep over it, refuse to obsess over it, and refuse to scour the bidding activity of every auction like some hypothetical power nerd.

I agree with all of the above and it's exactly how I handle my own bidding. I read your previous statements to mean that you felt you had to either check the history of all ebay sellers, which was too much trouble, or just bid on any seller's items if it was stuff you wanted, even if you knew the seller was crooked. Quite frankly, I don't check the history of ANY ebay sellers - I would have no idea that large ebay sellers were shilling (or permitting shilling) if I didn't read about it here in this forum. As a result, I've avoided those sellers. So this forum has some good results when it comes to 'fighting crime'.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Runscott

As a result, I've avoided those sellers. So this forum has some good results when it comes to 'fighting crime'.

FWIW - I sometimes still bid in their auctions, but when I do, I always set a very low snipe and almost never win.

[Runscott]

removed my post - sounded like whining