The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[jhs5120]

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?

On a side note I sold a card that went for $40 and has a VCP around $120 last night. There are a lot of good deals through PWCC.... if you can find auctions that aren't shilled.

[bobbyw8469]

On a side note I sold a card that went for $40 and has a VCP around $120 last night. There are a lot of good deals through PWCC.... if you can find auctions that aren't shilled.

+1....I too, gave some cards away thru PWCC last night. There are deals to be had...you just have to know what you are looking for.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?

Doesn't ebay have a feature that allows sellers to block bidders with very low feedback?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Doesn't ebay have a feature that allows sellers to block bidders with very low feedback?

It's a shame ebay doesn't have a feature to block crooked sellers.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?

Yes, I blame the scanner. Because after all, an honest guy like Brent whose auctions are littered with fraud would never have misleading scans as well -- because that might suggest he's dishonest.

[MattyC]

The scans are definitely brighter and bolder and thus not representative of the card in hand. I think anyone bidding on these must take this into consideration. The scans are so cartoonish sometimes and thus so obvious, I can't fathom why PWCC hasn't gone to normal scans. I guess not as obvious to all.

There's no denying that some PWCC auctions are shilled-- but there's also no denying that some aren't shilled. This leads me to parse the issues of the scans and the shilling. I would bet the shilling is being done by the owners of the cards themselves, as opposed to Brent commanding a legion of guys with shill accounts, masterminding which auctions to hit and which to leave alone, like some Lex Luthor super villain.

Now whether it is incumbent or not on an entity like PWCC to vet each individual auction for its duration, canceling suspected shill bids, that is an entirely separate conversation of course. I'd think hiring one dedicated person by the hour to man an email "hotline" and cancel reported shill bids would not be so expensive, and do wonders for reputation, engendering goodwill and thus business.

[bobbyw8469]

The shilling is obvious when he has two of the exact same cards up for bids. For example, 1962 Juan Marichal rookie card SGC 7. When one of the 7's is markedly better than the other one, yet the inferior 7 is double what the better example is - that tells me shill bidding is going on.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Why are we blaming PWCC? To me, it looks like a bidder who previously was banned by Brent made a quick account and shilled.. How is this Brent's fault?

On a side note I sold a card that went for $40 and has a VCP around $120 last night. There are a lot of good deals through PWCC.... if you can find auctions that aren't shilled.

I agree. Brent has done an incredible job creating monthly auctions that get more views than my or most board member listings. More viewers , more bids. & strangely I have done MUCH better as a buyer- getting great deals than as a consignor. When there are 100's of T206's listed at .99cent starting price some cards can slip though the cracks-I've caught some. Other cards lke a Johnson portrait most likely won't slip through.That being said I respect Brent and his auction. I believe he is earning good money on his auctions and has integrity and would
no more intentionally Shill an auction than any of us would.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chernieto

I agree. Brent has done an incredible job creating monthly auctions that get more views than my or most board member listings. More viewers , more bids. & strangely I have done MUCH better as a buyer- getting great deals than as a consignor. When there are 100's of T206's listed at .99cent starting price some cards can slip though the cracks-I've caught some. Other cards lke a Johnson portrait most likely won't slip through.That being said I respect Brent and his auction. I believe he is earning good money on his auctions and has integrity and would
no more intentionally Shill an auction than any of us would.

It sounds like the blind guys in this thread are buying cards from each other, but paying a consignment fee to do so. You should introduce yourselves to one another and save some bucks.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It sounds like the blind guys in this thread are buying cards from each other, but paying a consignment fee to do so. You should introduce yourselves to one another and save some bucks.

I don't know Scott ...when I got a beautiful T206 graded SGC 7.5 for $ 369 in one of his auctions in the fall I was happy. If you have T206's graded like that with no issues & a price like that please let me know.

Reminds me of some lines from an old favorite song


"Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says, "Don't you see?
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up,"
from the Grateful Dead

Paul C

[glchen]

The problem is that there are very few true auctions that start at 99 cents on ebay anymore, especially for high end stuff like what PWCC often sells. I think as a buyer, you just need to examine the auction bidding to see if anything strange is going on, decide on a fair price if you believe for the card if you still want to bid, and then go on from there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glchen

The problem is that there are very few true auctions that start at 99 cents on ebay anymore, especially for high end stuff like what PWCC often sells. I think as a buyer, you just need to examine the auction bidding to see if anything strange is going on, decide on a fair price if you believe for the card if you still want to bid, and then go on from there.

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

Peter, even Jeff (calvindog) has bid and won from PWCC as recently as around a year ago, and don't tell me PWCC was "clean" before this ...

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

Or you could buy wherever you can find a nice card for a reasonable price. If I eliminated every shady character from my search I would be left buying cards from no one.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Or you could actually take a stand and not bid with people whose auctions always seem to have so many questions.

Just read all 11 pages. This is the best comment I've read.

I took a stand with Probstein when it was pointed out to him that his consigners were shilling and he did nothing about it. I haven't bid on any of his cards since. It's been tough because he's definitely had some nice cards that were tempting.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by chernieto

I don't know Scott ...when I got a beautiful T206 graded SGC 7.5 for $ 369 in one of his auctions in the fall I was happy. If you have T206's graded like that with no issues & a price like that please let me know.

Reminds me of some lines from an old favorite song


"Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says, "Don't you see?
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up,"
from the Grateful Dead

Paul C

The ironic thing about selling on the board is this. Not all the time, but sometimes, I will have a high profile, high demand card (like a Sandy Koufax/Roberto Clemente rookie card). I have a low price on Net54 but still get lowball offers. When I put the card on Ebay, I obviously get more than what I was asking for on Net54. Maybe the buyers here are too finnicky?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The ironic thing about selling on the board is this. Not all the time, but sometimes, I will have a high profile, high demand card (like a Sandy Koufax/Roberto Clemente rookie card). I have a low price on Net54 but still get lowball offers. When I put the card on Ebay, I obviously get more than what I was asking for on Net54. Maybe the buyers here are too finnicky?

Maybe.....Everyone wants a GREAT deal and a lot of folks think that in a straight buy (as is on the BST) they are not getting a steal? That being said I have bought and sold a fair amount on the BST and it's all been fine. Some things I have listed, didn't sell. Not a big deal. I was out the few minutes it took me to list there.... I have watched lizards mating on a fence and wasted more time .

[drcy]

I've sold and auctioned here at B/S/T. I've had people buy at my asking price and stuff that went unsold. I've mostly sold lesser priced odds and ends. It's got a smaller and closed to members audience, so you won't always match a product to a collector, but it's a decent market place. As I mostly follow the Pre-War discussions, I don't know how many members are the types looking for Clemente and Koufax rookies.

Even if you like eBay, it's good to have multiple places to sell. Depending on just one place can backfire in the long run. And B/S/T is another place to sell. I would imagine there would be little stuff I'd sell here that might sit around forever in the sea that is eBay.

I agree with the earlier comment that, what some people consider market price, involves shilling. They often realize this when they turn to sell. This is why it's important for collectors to sell once in a while-- to have a feel for what the market is really like and what selling really involves. Also, people who go strictly by others' sales prices, tend to naturally focus on the highest (record) prices and get a distorted view of value due to that. It's human nature. If a non-selling card sells elsewhere for $200, $250 and $300 in honest auctions, a collector might consciously or nonconsciously think "It's sold as high as $300. My card is worth $300." Real world selling can shake some of the cognitive biases from your head.

One thing I've always recommended is that collectors sell at least one in a while, even if that just means consigning. Keeps them in touch with the real world. And real world pricing isn't what REA or Heritage gets or what VCP lists or what you'd theoretically get by analyzing others auctions. Real world pricing is what you get when you sell, and real world selling is the act of selling. If you don't know what I mean by real world selling, do some selling. As Alfred Hitchcock said, "A movie is real life with the boring parts cut out." Day dream selling is selling without the time, email tag, unreasonable buyers, packaging tape, boredom, standing in line at the post office, unanticipated costs and searching alley dumpsters for right sized cardboard boxes.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The ironic thing about selling on the board is this. Not all the time, but sometimes, I will have a high profile, high demand card (like a Sandy Koufax/Roberto Clemente rookie card). I have a low price on Net54 but still get lowball offers. When I put the card on Ebay, I obviously get more than what I was asking for on Net54. Maybe the buyers here are too finnicky?

Interesting thought!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chernieto

Reminds me of some lines from an old favorite song


"Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says, "Don't you see?
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up,"
from the Grateful Dead

Paul C

Just squeeze a little harder and you'll realize it's your own hand.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Just squeeze a little harder and you'll realize it's your own hand.

When I looked at your web page I thought to myself...man ...who would offer a T206 SGC 30 common for $49.00 & call me blind for saying PWCC is ok. I am not looking for a fight, but my vision is A.O.K & don't appreciate you calling me blind because I have gotten good deals on PWCC ( and Probstein) & compared to you website....I could see how you are in search of blind buyers.....
PWCC seems down right cheap compared to your listings ....& no shills on your listings....

[Iron Horse]

Sorry Gary. You are correct I did get the E103 Wagner. The image and carity/color was so amazing that I just had to get it. Been looking for one like that for 2 years now.
I guess I'm out of the picture so I hope you will land yours soon

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Sorry Gary. You are correct I did get the E103 Wagner. The image and carity/color was so amazing that I just had to get it. Been looking for one like that for 2 years now.
I guess I'm out of the picture so I hope you will land yours soon

No worries, Ruben, that was a beautiful card. I knew you were looking for one for a while since you've had that on your BST listing, which was why I thought it was you. Next time!