Chick Hafey - HOF...Why?

steve B · #1 05-01-2014, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctownboy

This is why I think some guys should be removed from the HOF. Either that or they create two different Hall Of Fame. One for the truly great players and another for borderline (or never should have beens) like Hafey.

There are a lot of guys who had two or three great years or who had their careers cut short for one reason or another but putting them in the HOF because of it just isn't right.

So what "that for several years he was one of the most respected players in the National League. He played on a par with the likes of Hornsby, Terry, and Waner". Big deal.

Jim Rice had a longer career, a longer peak and put up numbers WAAAAYY better than Hafey yet he is considered a borderline HOF (some say he shouldn't be in). Fred McGriff had a better career. So did Tim Raines and Alan Trammell and Lou Whittaker and Dave Concepcion and Gil Hodges and .....

David

And to skip back to the OP for a moment. Rice also wore glasses towards the end of his career.

Steve B

Harliduck · #2 05-01-2014, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

And to skip back to the OP for a moment. Rice also wore glasses towards the end of his career.

Steve B

Wikipedia "fact"...haha...go figure.

I Only Smoke 4 the Cards · #3 05-01-2014, 10:22 PM

Which year did he play on par with Hornsby? He had some great seasons but never touched one season at Hornsby's career BA.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 05-01-2014, 10:28 PM

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (�)

Black Ink Batting - 7 (324), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 79 (311), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 69 (284), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 33 (254), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Left Field (57th), 30.1 career WAR/27.1 7yr-peak WAR/28.6 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS

the 'stache · #5 05-02-2014, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (�)

Black Ink Batting - 7 (324), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 79 (311), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 69 (284), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 33 (254), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Left Field (57th), 30.1 career WAR/27.1 7yr-peak WAR/28.6 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS

Those numbers are a nice guideline, but they're not definitive. Nor, are they meant to be. Example:

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (�)
Black Ink Pitching - 78 (12), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink Pitching - 151 (94), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 227 (17), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 46 (48), Average HOFer ≈ 50

According to two of these four standards, maybe the greatest pitcher to ever play the game is a below average Hall of Famer.

Who is this? Sandy Koufax, who, like Hafey, had an abbreviated career. Now, Haffey never dominated the league the way Koufax did, granted. But certain players who do not have the eye-popping career numbers can merit inclusion in the Hall of Fame.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 05-02-2014, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Those numbers are a nice guideline, but they're not definitive. Nor, are they meant to be. Example:

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (�)
Black Ink Pitching - 78 (12), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink Pitching - 151 (94), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 227 (17), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 46 (48), Average HOFer ≈ 50

According to two of these four standards, maybe the greatest pitcher to ever play the game is a below average Hall of Famer.

Who is this? Sandy Koufax, who, like Hafey, had an abbreviated career. Now, Haffey never dominated the league the way Koufax did, granted. But certain players who do not have the eye-popping career numbers can merit inclusion in the Hall of Fame.

First, Koufax rates very high in two of four categories, Black Ink and Hall of Fame monitor. And even on the two he doesn't rate so high he is way ahead of Hafey, who is just miserable in all four. Second,as you say, Koufax's peak years were SO exceptional that he deserves a little leeway;We can't say the same for Hafey. Third, I am not familiar with anyone saying Koufax is the best pitcher of all time. I think Bill James rates him in the bottom of his top 10 and that seems right to me. Finally, stats of course do not tell all, but the Baseball Reference stats are adjusted for era and are in my estimation pretty reliable.

bn2cardz · #7 05-02-2014, 09:14 AM

There is always the "if this person than this person should be in", but mine is the opposite if Ken Williams isn't in than Hafey shouldn't be in. Williams was the first player to hit more home runs than strike out. He accomplished that feat more than once and his overall numbers are just slightly better than Hafey across the board. He just happened to play on the wrong StL team and his teammates weren't the ones doing the voting when Hafey got in.

the 'stache · #8 05-02-2014, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

First, Koufax rates very high in two of four categories, Black Ink and Hall of Fame monitor. And even on the two he doesn't rate so high he is way ahead of Hafey, who is just miserable in all four.

That's not the point, really. The point is the four metrics you site are unreliable. They're nice to give the reader a very rough quick check on a player's career as compared to other players. But they're hardly definitive. Two of the metric say "based on our formulas, you're not even an average Hall of Famer, Mr. Koufax". Yes, that is an accurate statement. Plus, I can blow apart each of the four metrics, quite easily. For example, the Black Ink Test measures how many times a player leads their league in one of the important categories. What a joke. So, if Cecil Cooper were a Hall of Fame-worthy player (he's borderline at best, and I don't expect he'll ever be voted in by the Veteran's Committee), the Black Ink Test would basically look at his .352 batting average in 1980 and deem it worthless for their "metric", because George Brett batted .390. And his 219 hits, too, would be worthless because Willie Wilson had 230 hits. But it doesn't take into consideration the disparity in at bats. Cooper had 622. Willie Wilson had 705 at bats, the second highest single season total in history. But Wilson's black list score still goes up, and Cooper's doesn't, even though Cooper had a much higher batting average (.352 to .328).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Second,as you say, Koufax's peak years were SO exceptional that he deserves a little leeway;We can't say the same for Hafey.

Sure we can. In fact, I just did, in my last post. Again, I'm not going to use the career WAR, and peak WAR metrics at all. Why? How the hell do you accurately calculate it for games played 80 years ago? There's no spray charts. There's no way to calculate fielding range, etc. That Hafey, one of the better defensive left fielders of his time has negative dWAR each year during his peak, is laughable. I guess the statisticians figured his eyes were too poor to see balls hit to the outfield, completely ignoring that he was a career .317 hitter.

But anyway, in his 5 year peak, his OPS was nearly identical to that of Jimmie Foxx's. Granted, Foxx had not yet hit his prime, but for that period, Foxx was averaging .327, 31 HR and 129 RBI per 162 games.

Again, I am not making the argument that Hafey is a shoo in. If he were being considered, I am not sure he gets in. Probably not. But I don't have a problem with his being elected. I do think he was worthy of the honor.

By the way, I don't know if Koufax in his prime was the best pitcher to ever play the game. He's in my top five, though.

the 'stache · #9 05-02-2014, 09:28 AM

A cursory examination of Hafey's numbers might not blow your socks off. But Hafey is one of those rare exceptions where the numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

Quote:

“I always thought that if Hafey had been blessed with normal eyesight and good health, he might have been the best right-handed hitter baseball had ever known,”-Branch Rickey

Putting aside Mr. Rickey's appreciation of Hafey's talent, of course, Hall of Fame election has to be based on merit, and not what the player was capable of doing.

Chick Hafey played from 1924 to 1937. He only came to the plate 5,115 times, which is going to immediately limit the wow factor when viewing his stats. But Hafey's production compares quite favorably to the other great hitters from his era.

Without getting into a lot of advanced metrics, one of my favorite statistics is OPS, or on base plus slugging. OPS, of course, combines slugging average, the metric for power, and on base percentage, which measures the frequency with which a player got on base via a hit, a walk, or being hit by the pitcher. The truly great hitters of the game bring power, as well as the ability to get on base.

Let's look at the players from Hafey's era with the best OPS figures. For my analysis, batters will be required to have at least 3,000 at bats between the years 1924 and 1937.

114 hitters registered in excess of 3,000 at bats during the course of Hafey's career. Chick Hafey had the 18th highest OPS over this period. When you consider that several of the players ahead of him on this list are immortals of the games, namely Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Rogers Hornsby, Jimmie Foxx, and Mel Ott, in addition to other Hall of Fame superstars including Al Simmons, Chuck Klein, Harry Heilmann and Hack Wilson, Hafey's .898 OPS total is pretty impressive.

Hafey's OPS beat out fellow Hall of Famers Mickey Cochrane, Charlie Gehringer, Bill Dickey, Kiki Cuyler, Tony Lazzeri, Joe Cronin, Earle Combs, Luke Appling, Frankie Frisch, Pie Traynor and Billy Herman, among others.

Hafey was plagued by vision problems throughout his career, resulting from multiple beanings, and sinus problems. He was the first star to ever wear glasses, and one of only two Hall of Famers to wear them (Reggie Jackson being the other). He missed half the 1932 season because of a sinus infection. The sinus problems became chronic, and though he played more games in 1933 and 1934 than he ever had before, they affected his hitting. He left his team before the end of the '34 season to have corrective surgery. His career, for all intents and purposes, was done after the '34 season--at age 31. He did play 15 games in 1935, but was stricken with influenza. He decided to retire. He attempted a comeback in 1937, but his eyesight was so bad he could not hit, and had no power. He was no longer the player who set a Major League record with ten straight hits, who hit for the cycle, or even who won the National League batting title in 1931.

If you consider Hafey's career before 1932 when his illnesses robbed him of his hitting abilities, his OPS was .948. Consider his performance against his peers between 1924 and 1931. During that period, he had the 9th best OPS of all Major League hitters with over 2,500 at bats.

If you consider Hafey's 5 year peak, which took place from 1927 to 1931, Hafey's OPS was 4 points lower than Hack Wilson's, and 5 points lower than Jimmie Foxx's.

Author Lawrence Ritter and baseball historian Donald Honig included Hafey In their 1981 book The 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All-Time. They cited what they called "the Smoky Joe Wood Syndrome," where a player of truly exceptional talent might rank with the all-time greats on merit, despite a career sharply curtailed by injury. It's no secret that Hafey was described as a great hitter by his peers. He also had a legendary throwing arm, with arm strength and accuracy that has been compared to that of Roberto Clemente.

So, do I think Chick Hafey was a no brainer for the Hall? No. But he was a truly great player who had his career hampered, and shortened, by injury. I certainly do not feel his inclusion should be questioned.

I'll leave you all with one more thing. Chick Hafey has the 54th highest slugging percentage of all-time at .526. Here's a list of some of the players with a career slugging percentage below Chick Hafey's:

Shoeless Joe Jackson
Willie McCovey
Ty Cobb
Eddie Mathews
Harmon Killebrew
Bill Terry
Joe Medwyck
Jim Rice
Tris Speaker
Roy Campanella
Ernie Banks
Orlando Cepeda
Ted Kluszewski
Reggie Jackson
Rocky Colavito
Norm Cash
George Brett
Bill Dickey
Joe Adcock
Fred Lynn
Yogi Berra
Charlie Gehringer
Al Kaline
Mickey Cochrane
Tony Oliva
Roger Maris
Eddie Murray
Johnny Bench
Roberto Clemente
Dave Winfield
Jackie Robinson
Paul Waner
Joe Cronin
Tony Lazzeri
Honus Wagner
Napolean Lajoie
Carl Yastrzemski
Ken Boyer

howard38 · #10 05-02-2014, 09:56 AM

I don't think anyone disputes that Hafey was an outstanding hitter and even a likely hall of famer if he had been injury free and had better vision. But his peak was only five years and in those years he never even reached 140 games in a season nor were his stats mind boggling a la Koufax. Baseball history is littered w/hitters in Hafey's class that, for one reason or another, had short careers or career peaks. If all of them were inducted it would make for a mighty crowded hall. If you're a big hall of fame guy that's fine but as it stands now I personally don't see that he belongs.

the 'stache · #11 05-02-2014, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howard38

I don't think anyone disputes that Hafey was an outstanding hitter and even a likely hall of famer if he had been injury free and had better vision. But his peak was only five years and in those years he never even reached 140 games in a season nor were his stats mind boggling a la Koufax. Baseball history is littered w/hitters in Hafey's class that, for one reason or another, had short careers or career peaks. If all of them were inducted it would make for a mighty crowded hall. If you're a big hall of fame guy that's fine but as it stands now I personally don't see that he belongs.

I guess I'm looking at it a little differently. Again, I don't think he'd be elected if he were being considered today. But I don't have a problem with his being in, and in the context of his era, even though he only played in about 1,300 games, I feel he was worthy. He's certainly one of the lower tier Hall of Famers, but that's like saying "such and such was one of the least attractive Playmates of the Year".

One thing we really can't control for is the esteem his peers had for him. I think that carried a lot of weight, and we have no way of factoring that in. We can't talk to those players, unfortunately, since they're no longer alive. But I think the consensus was that Hafey was one of the very best hitters of that generation, and they believed his production backed that up.

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