Chick Hafey - HOF...Why?

[Harliduck]

Here is a great exert from an article found on Sabr, you guys nailed it -

Hafey was elected to the Hall that year along with Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Joe Kelley, Rube Marquard, and Harry Hooper. Subsequently, many of the selections made by the Veterans Committee, especially during this era, were seen as acts of cronyism, that honorees owed their selection to having been teammates of committee members like Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry rather than being based on merit. Controversy over admission of players chosen in this manner, including Hafey, continues to this day.[17] What gets lost in the continuing dialogue on this matter, at least with respect to Hafey, is that for several years he was one of the most respected players in the National League. He played on a par with the likes of Hornsby, Terry, and Waner – and that is what ought to be remembered.

Full article here...its a great piece -

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/96ae4951

[spec]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

Here is a great exert from an article found on Sabr, you guys nailed it -

Hafey was elected to the Hall that year along with Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Joe Kelley, Rube Marquard, and Harry Hooper. Subsequently, many of the selections made by the Veterans Committee, especially during this era, were seen as acts of cronyism, that honorees owed their selection to having been teammates of committee members like Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry rather than being based on merit. Controversy over admission of players chosen in this manner, including Hafey, continues to this day.[17] What gets lost in the continuing dialogue on this matter, at least with respect to Hafey, is that for several years he was one of the most respected players in the National League. He played on a par with the likes of Hornsby, Terry, and Waner – and that is what ought to be remembered.

Full article here...its a great piece -

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/96ae4951

Check out the paragraph before this and you'll see Hafey was honored -- like Elmer Flick (gastritis) -- partly for what might have been had his eyesight not deteriorated.

[ctownboy]

This is why I think some guys should be removed from the HOF. Either that or they create two different Hall Of Fame. One for the truly great players and another for borderline (or never should have beens) like Hafey.

There are a lot of guys who had two or three great years or who had their careers cut short for one reason or another but putting them in the HOF because of it just isn't right.

So what "that for several years he was one of the most respected players in the National League. He played on a par with the likes of Hornsby, Terry, and Waner". Big deal.

Jim Rice had a longer career, a longer peak and put up numbers WAAAAYY better than Hafey yet he is considered a borderline HOF (some say he shouldn't be in). Fred McGriff had a better career. So did Tim Raines and Alan Trammell and Lou Whittaker and Dave Concepcion and Gil Hodges and .....

David

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

This is why I think some guys should be removed from the HOF. Either that or they create two different Hall Of Fame. One for the truly great players and another for borderline (or never should have beens) like Hafey.

There are a lot of guys who had two or three great years or who had their careers cut short for one reason or another but putting them in the HOF because of it just isn't right.

So what "that for several years he was one of the most respected players in the National League. He played on a par with the likes of Hornsby, Terry, and Waner". Big deal.

Jim Rice had a longer career, a longer peak and put up numbers WAAAAYY better than Hafey yet he is considered a borderline HOF (some say he shouldn't be in). Fred McGriff had a better career. So did Tim Raines and Alan Trammell and Lou Whittaker and Dave Concepcion and Gil Hodges and .....

David

And to skip back to the OP for a moment. Rice also wore glasses towards the end of his career.

Steve B

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by steve B

And to skip back to the OP for a moment. Rice also wore glasses towards the end of his career.

Steve B

Wikipedia "fact"...haha...go figure.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Which year did he play on par with Hornsby? He had some great seasons but never touched one season at Hornsby's career BA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Batting - 7 (324), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 79 (311), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 69 (284), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 33 (254), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Left Field (57th), 30.1 career WAR/27.1 7yr-peak WAR/28.6 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Batting - 7 (324), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 79 (311), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 69 (284), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 33 (254), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Left Field (57th), 30.1 career WAR/27.1 7yr-peak WAR/28.6 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS

Those numbers are a nice guideline, but they're not definitive. Nor, are they meant to be. Example:

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)
Black Ink Pitching - 78 (12), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink Pitching - 151 (94), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 227 (17), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 46 (48), Average HOFer ≈ 50

According to two of these four standards, maybe the greatest pitcher to ever play the game is a below average Hall of Famer.

Who is this? Sandy Koufax, who, like Hafey, had an abbreviated career. Now, Haffey never dominated the league the way Koufax did, granted. But certain players who do not have the eye-popping career numbers can merit inclusion in the Hall of Fame.

[the 'stache]

I think this discussion is about to get a little more interesting, because I think that Chick Hafey is deserving of his place in the Baseball Hall of Fame. I'll put together my argument, and post it here in a little bit.

[Kenny Cole]

The problem with most of these HOF arguments is that there is an entire lack of context. Tommy McCarthy is my textbook example. You look at him and it is certainly fair to say that nothing about him stands out as a player statistically. But he was widely regarded as one of the smartest players of his time, was given credit (rightly or wrongly) for inventing the hit and run, etc. Clearly, he was held in enough esteem that he was elected despite his less than impressive stats as a player. Those stats don't look like much now but it doesn't matter because in the context of the time, he was perceived as one of the smartest, most innovative players who had ever played up to then. That's why he was elected.

I'll let Bill mount the argument for Hafey. IMO, he is in the bottom tier of those who have been elected. But there is always a bottom tier. If the HOF criteria is Ruth, then you only have Ruth and maybe Wiliams (or Bonds, which isn't an argument that I want to get into right now). That isn't a sustainable position. If the bottom tier isn't Hafey, its someone else and we're having the same argument, just about someone else.

My HOF definition is probably more expansive than that of others, so I don't have too much heartburn that he's in. I have more heartburn about the exclusion of players like Doyle, Phillippe, Stan Hack, Leever, Reulbach, Caruthers, Stovey, Van Haltren, Ryan, Bobby Matthews, Mullane, and several negro leaguers (such as Grant Johnson, Chet Brewer, Nip Winters, Ed Wesley, Oliver Marcelle, Dick Lundy and Bill Monroe among others), than I am exorcised about Hafey's election. Hafey got elected in part due to Frisch, but he was a pretty damn good ballplayer even before Frisch pimped him.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

The problem with most of these HOF arguments is that there is an entire lack of context.

Kenny, that's spooky. I'd finished part of the argument I was making in favor of Chick Haffey, but decided to watch the rest of my movie before diving into the statistical analysis I wanted to present.

But you've touched on the first point I am going to make:

Though I may never hold the title in any official capacity, I consider myself a baseball historian. As a child, I spent a lot of time in bed, and when I couldn't play the game I loved, or watch my friends play, I was reading everything I could find about the history of the game. My parents would find books in the public library, or go to the book store, and buy things for me to read. Friends of our family would also give me books to read. And If I've learned one thing from the literally thousands of hours I've spent reading about the players that have made the game great, it's the importance of context. When considering a player for the Hall of Fame, or determining if a player already in Cooperstown merits inclusion, it is essential to compare a player against their peers.

When I do my comparison of Hafey to the players from his era, I think it's going to be pretty evident that he belongs.

Kudos to you for seeing that. I've had more spirited debates with people on baseball history than I could ever remember. And far too often, the context of the era they played in is completely overlooked.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

There are a lot of guys who had two or three great years or who had their careers cut short for one reason or another but putting them in the HOF because of it just isn't right.

David

David, I kind of disagree with you here. I think the Hall of Fame that honors Chick Hafey and Rabbit Maranville should also honor Tony Oliva, Roger Maris, Bill Freehan and Thuman Munson. This is a place for lovers of the game and real fans and while one could easily argue that it is not what the hall of fame set out to be, it is what it has become and it is unfair to the families to go our and extract the Elmer Flicks.

I think there should be a second "inner circle" which would be honored in some other way...gold plaques maybe...it is comprised of players who one must know to meet minimum functional baseball literacy standards. It would start with an induction class of 11...one of each position player, one right handed pitcher, one left handed pitcher and one at large (manager, relief pitcher, another extra player). After the initial induction one player will be added to the class each year. My suspicion would be someone along the lines of Ernie Banks would be the minimum standard to ever receive consideration.