Just sad. No, not sad. Pathetic.

[MattyC]

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

Understood but I think these threads are good. It's good to know the dishonest (by the fact of looking the other way) sellers and shenanigans going on, on things we bid on. I snipe but still don't like to pay more due to fraud than I should have to. Or you can just ignore it.....

And I do agree about bidding what you want to and no more. I do that anyway....(usually)

[MattyC]

Leon,

To be clear, in my last post I am not making any commentary on the thread or calling posts like this whining.

I am just offering an approach that leads to less Sturm und Drang, less negative mental energy and frustration, and more happiness on a daily level for the fellow collector.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Leon,

To be clear, in my last post I am not making any commentary on the thread or calling posts like this whining.

I am just offering an approach that leads to less Sturm und Drang, less negative mental energy and frustration, and more happiness on a daily level for the fellow collector.

I very seldom get frustrated over this kind of thing. I usually get more frustrated on AH bidding that goes well beyond my meager means on things I really want (and have a sliver of a chance of obtaining).

[ullmandds]

Maybe we should just be happy for the cards...commanding such high prices...I mean don't they deserve it?

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Maybe we should just be happy for the cards...commanding such high prices...I mean don't they deserve it?

Yes, they do. And I appreciate the veiled reference to an earlier post. There are many cards in the hobby that I admire and root for, if you will, to gain greater stature and value. More of which I don't own than I do. I often find myself rooting for cards the way I root for players. I believe some great, beautiful cards of great players are underappreciated or undervalued, and thus deserve to be worth more. The Frederick Foto Ruth is a prime example.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Maybe we should just be happy for the cards...commanding such high prices...I mean don't they deserve it?

I'm going to have to disagree with you and Matt here, Pete. Respectfully so, of course. No, I do not feel this card deserves it, and I'll tell you why.

No extraordinary comment about the quality of the card in question has been made by me, the potential bidder, or anybody else really. I said it was a "pretty nice" card. I certainly do not see anything aesthetically superior about this card compared to similarly-graded cards. In fact, based on a comparison of the two scans provided, I think the PSA 3.5 being sold by PWCC has slightly better eye appeal, and of the two cards, that would be the one deserving of a premium, in my opinion. Therefore, to my thinking anyway, the bid history we are seeing with this card is not at all merit based. It is not realizing a more robust price because of how it looks. This is simply schill bidding for shill bidding's sake. The seller wants to ensure that their card sells for a certain amount, not because they feel there is something intrinsically special about the card, but because they want more green in their pocket.

I would have no problem whatsoever paying more for a card if it had superior eye appeal to those of an identical grade. I have examined the price history for this particular card on card target. I could certainly do the same on VCP, paying for a 24 hour membership. And if after establishing a baseline I saw a card that exceeded my expectations for the grade, I'd have no problem paying a premium. Eye appeal is very important to me. But I just don't see anything extraordinary about this card. I have seen fours with sharp corners and edges that present better than this card.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm going to have to disagree with you and Matt here, Pete. Respectfully so, of course. No, I do not feel this card deserves it, and I'll tell you why.

No extraordinary comment about the quality of the card in question has been made by me, the potential bidder, or anybody else really. I said it was a "pretty nice" card. I certainly do not see anything aesthetically superior about this card compared to similarly-graded cards. In fact, based on a comparison of the two scans provided, I think the PSA 3.5 being sold by PWCC has slightly better eye appeal, and of the two cards, that would be the one deserving of a premium, in my opinion. Therefore, to my thinking anyway, the bid history we are seeing with this card is not at all merit based. It is not realizing a more robust price because of how it looks. This is simply schill bidding for shill bidding's sake. The seller wants to ensure that their card sells for a certain amount, not because they feel there is something intrinsically special about the card, but because they want more green in their pocket.

I would have no problem whatsoever paying more for a card if it had superior eye appeal to those of an identical grade. I have examined the price history for this particular card on card target. I could certainly do the same on VCP, paying for a 24 hour membership. And if after establishing a baseline I saw a card that exceeded my expectations for the grade, I'd have no problem paying a premium. Eye appeal is very important to me. But I just don't see anything extraordinary about this card. I have seen fours with sharp corners and edges that present better than this card.

Bill...I was being facetious...I think the concept of "being happy for a card" is kinda ridiculous!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

What you are happy paying is in part a function of your perception of the market, and if that market is driven up by fraud.... you get the point.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What you are happy paying is in part a function of your perception of the market, and if that market is driven up by fraud.... you get the point.

Agreed, I totally get it. I'm just content to factor everything in to my comfortable paying prices. There's reality, which needs to be lived in and faced, and then there is pining for some parallel universe in which certain daily annoyances don't exist (not saying anyone here is doing that, just pointing out a path on which I do not want to find myself).

This is not to say making all collectors aware of shilling is not a great service. It is. And knowledge is power. I just think the best thing to do with that knowledge is factor it in, understand what price it takes to acquire a desired card, and either reel that baby in and enjoy it as part of a collection, or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Agreed, I totally get it. I'm just content to factor everything in to my comfortable paying prices. There's reality, which needs to be lived in and faced, and then there is pining for some parallel universe in which certain daily annoyances don't exist (not saying anyone here is doing that, just pointing out a path on which I do not want to find myself).

This is not to say making all collectors aware of shilling is not a great service. It is. And knowledge is power. I just think the best thing to do with that knowledge is factor it in, understand what price it takes to acquire a desired card, and either reel that baby in and enjoy it as part of a collection, or not.

This is why fraud succeeds, because people (not singling you out, we are all guilty of it to some extent) just become complacent/resigned and accept fraud as part of the landscape.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is why fraud succeeds, because people (not singling you out, we are all guilty of it to some extent) just become complacent/resigned and accept fraud as part of the landscape.

I hear ya. But I don't think there's a way to ever rid the hobby or the world of fraud altogether; perhaps it's a misanthropic worldview, but I believe it is part and parcel of the human race. I think the best we can do, hobby-wise, is educate ourselves, factor in inflated prices when formulating bids, choose to abstain from bids (if one prefers), learn how to spot shilling and fake sales, etc. And one must also strike the balance between, on one hand, maintaining an awareness of and rooting out fraud, and on the other, leading a happy life-- especially within one's hobby, which is ideally a source of pleasure. If the cost of combatting fraud at the most knightly level is a default state of frothy rage or annoyance, a state that makes the hobby unenjoyable, that might not be a cost some are willing to pay. So some hobbyists may choose to adopt a more even approach of vigilance and caution that does not over-consume or cause one too much heartburn

We also have to end apartheid, for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism, and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens. . . . I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

+1

I treat every auction like it may have a hidden reserve. I have never paid more for a card than I was prepared to. And, I don't get caught up in the concern that my price expectations may be inflated by a false market created by shillers.

Having said this, I appreciate these threads, and I factor in all of this information into my bidding strategy.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Try simply sniping what you think a card is worth and are happy paying. Then what happens, happens.

Why even look at bidding histories when people are retracting now just to make an auction look bad-- akin to dissing a card to dampen interest. You know what annoying TMZ drivel is on that channel, so why tune in and annoy yourself? It is tantamount to masochism.

PWCC has a few cards I think are gorgeous up right now. I am not going to let some shiller/owners enter my head for a moment. I snipe what I'm happy paying and let the chips fall. And I'm happy. The rest is headaches. I like great cards and no headaches. Why aggravate oneself?

Matt, I understand your thinking. In theory, if I'm willing to pay up to $1,000 on a card, I can just set an alarm on my phone to give me a "five minutes to auction end" warning, then load up my laptop, desktop computer or the Ebay app on my Windows phone, and put in my $1,000 bid right before the auction ends. And, if I get the card right at $1,000, I should be happy, as that's what I was willing to pay, right? I got the card, and nobody was able to make me exceed my budget.

Only, what if I would have gotten the card for $900, or $950 if it weren't for the shill bidder?

Four years ago, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. I was a single guy living on my own, and after getting my stock broker licenses, I got a pretty big promotion. I was making a good deal of money. So, $50 or $100 would have seemed insignificant to me. But since getting hurt, my thinking has changed. I am more mindful of wasting things now, money included. Losing $50 or $100 due to what is essentially criminal activity is completely unnecessary. When we become accepting of these kinds of losses because we didn't want to "stress out" over it, or "give it a second thought", it just enables these crooks further. What is the quotation with a seemingly endless list of variations that's attributed to Edmund Burke? Something to the effect of "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Well? If we are silent, then we're going to get more of the same.

If I were up against one legitimate buyer only, and I was forced to bid the full $1,000 in order to acquire the card, then I'd have no problem. But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

My view is that you would not have gotten the card for less if shilling had been prevented, because the seller would not have listed his card in an auction in the first place. Or he would have set a hidden reserve, or a higher minimum bid.

The reason ebay is filled with BINs is because most sellers don't want to have to shill to get their prices. But they're not going to list their items as pure auctions because they are afraid of letting a clean market dictate the price of the item. A price point set by a triggered BIN has the propensity to be just as misleading as a price point set by shill bidders.

Frankly, I think a buyer has a false sense of security if he thinks when he bids in an auction that there are only bona fide bidders competing against him.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If I were up against one legitimate buyer only, and I was forced to bid the full $1,000 in order to acquire the card, then I'd have no problem. But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

Bill, not directed at you (I think you are spot on), but a general question / observation for others regarding the "willing to pay" argument.

A man is going to buy a pair of shoes. He knows the pair of shoes he wants and he knows they cost $100. He goes into the shoe store and they are on sale for $50.

Which guy are you? The one who pays $50 for the shoes, or the one who gives the clerk $100 for the shoes, reasoning that you were willing to pay $100 for the shoes anyway?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tschock

Which guy are you? The one who pays $50 for the shoes, or the one who gives the clerk $100 for the shoes, reasoning that you were willing to pay $100 for the shoes anyway?

Of course nobody wants to pay $100 for shoes that he could get for $50. But, to believe that every auction is an opportunity to get $100 shoes for less is why people are lured into auction houses.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Of course nobody wants to pay $100 for shoes that he could get for $50. But, to believe that every auction is an opportunity to get $100 shoes for less is why people are lured into auction houses.

I'm not sure where this is even implied, and not the point anyway. If something would have gone for less (in an auction setting), why is it ok then that it was shilled, as long as you got it for what you were "willing to pay"?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tschock

I'm not sure where this is even implied, and not the point anyway. If something would have gone for less (in an auction setting), why is it ok then that it was shilled, as long as you got it for what you were "willing to pay"?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify.

What I am trying to say is that an "auction setting" is really no different than a BIN setting when you assume that there is the potential for shill bidding.

To imagine a world where the shiller is eliminated and the price drops down by $50 is the same thing as imagining a world where a seller places his listing price $50 less than he was willing to sell something for. Stated another way, if you told the shiller up front that he was going to get caught and prosecuted, he would either list his item at the higher price and list it with a higher reserve or minimum starting bid. The fantasy of a world where shilling doesn't exist and markets-clear prices are realized doesn't exist, least of all on eBay.

The reverse is also true. If you had a used car that you wanted to sell for $1,000, and a guy saw it and bought it for that price, you'd be happy, right? But, what if he recognized that your car had really rare features, and he flipped it immediately for $100,000? Of course the buyer would have wanted to get more than $1,000 for it in that case. But there is no mechanism for getting any more money to the buyer. The buyer was happy at his price point, as was the seller, but for different reasons. That certainly doesn't make speculating as a buyer illegal or immoral.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

What I am trying to say is that an "auction setting" is really no different than a BIN setting when you assume that there is the potential for shill bidding.

To imagine a world where the shiller is eliminated and the price drops down by $50 is the same thing as imagining a world where a seller places his listing price $50 less than he was willing to sell something for. Stated another way, if you told the shiller up front that he was going to get caught and prosecuted, he would either list his item at the higher price and list it with a higher reserve or minimum starting bid. The fantasy of a world where shilling doesn't exist and markets-clear prices are realized doesn't exist, least of all on eBay.

The reverse is also true. If you had a used car that you wanted to sell for $1,000, and a guy saw it and bought it for that price, you'd be happy, right? But, what if he recognized that your car had really rare features, and he flipped it immediately for $100,000? Of course the buyer would have wanted to get more than $1,000 for it in that case. But there is no mechanism for getting any more money to the buyer. The buyer was happy at his price point, as was the seller, but for different reasons. That certainly doesn't make speculating as a buyer illegal or immoral.

I understand what you are saying, and I think we are discussing the economic theory of what would happen if there was no shilling. We can theorize, but I don't think we can truly say. I could just as well argue that the $100 BIN, that may have been shilled up to $100 in an auction setting, might not cause a $50 BIN without shilling, but it might produce a $75 BIN, which is still better than being shilled for $100.

The end result might be no different (which we can only speculate on), but the method to get there is different. An auction is different than a BIN because they are different contracts, with different risks / rewards borne different parties.

Again my real point and the reason for my scenario is the argument by some, that as long as you get an item within what you bid, it doesn't matter that the market price might have been less (sans shilling).

[MattyC]

Bill,

I understand and respect your thinking as well, regarding the what ifs of spending X more because of shilling.

I guess where I take a different path is that I see no mental benefit to contemplating all those what ifs. I will never know what a card will have cost me in some alternate reality where the auction was 100% legit collectors bidding. I don't know how such a perfect auction would be run or ever exist.

As another said, in lieu of the straight auction, sellers or owners should just put up reserves or BINS and Best Offers and negotiate for a price.

I think it was Bob Marley who said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." If the 'what ifs' reach a tipping point or critical mass where contemplating them bugs you more than having the card would please you, then I would let the hypothetical card in question go. If having the card at a price you're okay paying will bring you enough joy that you don't care about having potentially spent less in an alternate reality, then I say win the card. At least that's how I see it, and maybe that alternate perspective can be helpful in some way

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Bill,

I understand and respect your thinking as well, regarding the what ifs of spending X more because of shilling.

I guess where I take a different path is that I see no mental benefit to contemplating all those what ifs. I will never know what a card will have cost me in some alternate reality where the auction was 100% legit collectors bidding. I don't know how such a perfect auction would be run or ever exist.

As another said, in lieu of the straight auction, sellers or owners should just put up reserves or BINS and Best Offers and negotiate for a price.

I think it was Bob Marley who said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." If the 'what ifs' reach a tipping point or critical mass where contemplating them bugs you more than having the card would please you, then I would let the hypothetical card in question go. If having the card at a price you're okay paying will bring you enough joy that you don't care about having potentially spent less in an alternate reality, then I say win the card. At least that's how I see it, and maybe that alternate perspective can be helpful in some way

There's really no mental benefit at all, Matt. You are correct. It's just that circumstances have led me to rethink a good many things.

I've always believed that there is but one immutable tenet: the only thing in life that is certain is uncertainty. Well, Ebay's dumbfounding lack of rule enforcement has me rethinking that, too.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ebay's dumbfounding lack of rule enforcement has me rethinking that, too.

I think it's pretty clearly calculated to encourage shilling. Which is why I just assume that all ebay auction sellers have a friend in Gibraltar bidding up their lots. The ones that don't use outrageous BINs instead.

Mostly tongue in cheek....