Just sad. No, not sad. Pathetic.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If I were up against one legitimate buyer only, and I was forced to bid the full $1,000 in order to acquire the card, then I'd have no problem. But if I should have gotten the card for less, why should I be even remotely ok with paying more?

Bill, not directed at you (I think you are spot on), but a general question / observation for others regarding the "willing to pay" argument.

A man is going to buy a pair of shoes. He knows the pair of shoes he wants and he knows they cost $100. He goes into the shoe store and they are on sale for $50.

Which guy are you? The one who pays $50 for the shoes, or the one who gives the clerk $100 for the shoes, reasoning that you were willing to pay $100 for the shoes anyway?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tschock

Which guy are you? The one who pays $50 for the shoes, or the one who gives the clerk $100 for the shoes, reasoning that you were willing to pay $100 for the shoes anyway?

Of course nobody wants to pay $100 for shoes that he could get for $50. But, to believe that every auction is an opportunity to get $100 shoes for less is why people are lured into auction houses.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Of course nobody wants to pay $100 for shoes that he could get for $50. But, to believe that every auction is an opportunity to get $100 shoes for less is why people are lured into auction houses.

I'm not sure where this is even implied, and not the point anyway. If something would have gone for less (in an auction setting), why is it ok then that it was shilled, as long as you got it for what you were "willing to pay"?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tschock

I'm not sure where this is even implied, and not the point anyway. If something would have gone for less (in an auction setting), why is it ok then that it was shilled, as long as you got it for what you were "willing to pay"?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify.

What I am trying to say is that an "auction setting" is really no different than a BIN setting when you assume that there is the potential for shill bidding.

To imagine a world where the shiller is eliminated and the price drops down by $50 is the same thing as imagining a world where a seller places his listing price $50 less than he was willing to sell something for. Stated another way, if you told the shiller up front that he was going to get caught and prosecuted, he would either list his item at the higher price and list it with a higher reserve or minimum starting bid. The fantasy of a world where shilling doesn't exist and markets-clear prices are realized doesn't exist, least of all on eBay.

The reverse is also true. If you had a used car that you wanted to sell for $1,000, and a guy saw it and bought it for that price, you'd be happy, right? But, what if he recognized that your car had really rare features, and he flipped it immediately for $100,000? Of course the buyer would have wanted to get more than $1,000 for it in that case. But there is no mechanism for getting any more money to the buyer. The buyer was happy at his price point, as was the seller, but for different reasons. That certainly doesn't make speculating as a buyer illegal or immoral.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

What I am trying to say is that an "auction setting" is really no different than a BIN setting when you assume that there is the potential for shill bidding.

To imagine a world where the shiller is eliminated and the price drops down by $50 is the same thing as imagining a world where a seller places his listing price $50 less than he was willing to sell something for. Stated another way, if you told the shiller up front that he was going to get caught and prosecuted, he would either list his item at the higher price and list it with a higher reserve or minimum starting bid. The fantasy of a world where shilling doesn't exist and markets-clear prices are realized doesn't exist, least of all on eBay.

The reverse is also true. If you had a used car that you wanted to sell for $1,000, and a guy saw it and bought it for that price, you'd be happy, right? But, what if he recognized that your car had really rare features, and he flipped it immediately for $100,000? Of course the buyer would have wanted to get more than $1,000 for it in that case. But there is no mechanism for getting any more money to the buyer. The buyer was happy at his price point, as was the seller, but for different reasons. That certainly doesn't make speculating as a buyer illegal or immoral.

I understand what you are saying, and I think we are discussing the economic theory of what would happen if there was no shilling. We can theorize, but I don't think we can truly say. I could just as well argue that the $100 BIN, that may have been shilled up to $100 in an auction setting, might not cause a $50 BIN without shilling, but it might produce a $75 BIN, which is still better than being shilled for $100.

The end result might be no different (which we can only speculate on), but the method to get there is different. An auction is different than a BIN because they are different contracts, with different risks / rewards borne different parties.

Again my real point and the reason for my scenario is the argument by some, that as long as you get an item within what you bid, it doesn't matter that the market price might have been less (sans shilling).

[MattyC]

Bill,

I understand and respect your thinking as well, regarding the what ifs of spending X more because of shilling.

I guess where I take a different path is that I see no mental benefit to contemplating all those what ifs. I will never know what a card will have cost me in some alternate reality where the auction was 100% legit collectors bidding. I don't know how such a perfect auction would be run or ever exist.

As another said, in lieu of the straight auction, sellers or owners should just put up reserves or BINS and Best Offers and negotiate for a price.

I think it was Bob Marley who said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." If the 'what ifs' reach a tipping point or critical mass where contemplating them bugs you more than having the card would please you, then I would let the hypothetical card in question go. If having the card at a price you're okay paying will bring you enough joy that you don't care about having potentially spent less in an alternate reality, then I say win the card. At least that's how I see it, and maybe that alternate perspective can be helpful in some way

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Bill,

I understand and respect your thinking as well, regarding the what ifs of spending X more because of shilling.

I guess where I take a different path is that I see no mental benefit to contemplating all those what ifs. I will never know what a card will have cost me in some alternate reality where the auction was 100% legit collectors bidding. I don't know how such a perfect auction would be run or ever exist.

As another said, in lieu of the straight auction, sellers or owners should just put up reserves or BINS and Best Offers and negotiate for a price.

I think it was Bob Marley who said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." If the 'what ifs' reach a tipping point or critical mass where contemplating them bugs you more than having the card would please you, then I would let the hypothetical card in question go. If having the card at a price you're okay paying will bring you enough joy that you don't care about having potentially spent less in an alternate reality, then I say win the card. At least that's how I see it, and maybe that alternate perspective can be helpful in some way

There's really no mental benefit at all, Matt. You are correct. It's just that circumstances have led me to rethink a good many things.

I've always believed that there is but one immutable tenet: the only thing in life that is certain is uncertainty. Well, Ebay's dumbfounding lack of rule enforcement has me rethinking that, too.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ebay's dumbfounding lack of rule enforcement has me rethinking that, too.

I think it's pretty clearly calculated to encourage shilling. Which is why I just assume that all ebay auction sellers have a friend in Gibraltar bidding up their lots. The ones that don't use outrageous BINs instead.

Mostly tongue in cheek....