Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

I can see that Wonka is hung up on Brite White Borders... Ok Wonka, lets say you have a card that already has Brite White Borders but also has a streak of something running horizontally across the card and unfortunately right across the players face - you cannot tell me for a fact that you know what soaking this card in water or anything else is going to do... Would you have a problem if using the water removed all the evidence of the stain? But do not forget this card has Brite White Borders before and after the soak - no change in that regard.

I see your stance (wonka) as a double standard - its convenient for you as water is something you have dealt with. This reminds of some arguments that my wife will often pose in that "I do not do it anywhere near as much as she does".

I think you are telling me as well, that you would be ok with Dick Towles process as long as the stain removal process he uses left some evidence of the stain? Is this correct?

John,
Nothing personal here - like I said earlier its an interesting subject to me.

Shawn you are just grasping at odd hypotheticals to try and make soaking a card off a scrap book page in the same hemisphere as Dick’s work of cleaning and crease pressing. Not sure what else I can say. I will say it once again perhaps you will be the person who addresses this and doesn’t go back to trying to split hairs to make a case. Or go back to posting chemistry debates on H2O etc.

You tell me what bowl of warm water removes stains from Planks, brightens the entire card and removes most all traces of toning and age? Also tell me if it’s not a big deal why did the auction house try and hide this?



If not wanting to be lied to and be sold doctored up cards that had wax, tape stains and creases that now are sent in to Dick under secrecy and then sold to collectors with no disclosure at a huge profit makes me a hypocrite guilty as charged.

Cheers,

John

[smokelessjoe]

John,

I do not care for the Plank at all... Nor I do not care for your removed cards out of scrapbooks... Yes I am throwing out hypotheticals but they are not unreasonable situations...

I do not like nor do I buy into the "oh water.... its so gentle... I think i'll just toss a couple of cards in a bowl... because, well just because". If you think people remove or restore or clean-up cards to the point that one barely can tell the difference before & after the water soak your just fooling yourself. We have seen examples here on the board where people made huge differences in the before & after with just water. And of course money is never the motivator when water is used right?

You tell me how you know what in the world a bowl of warm water would remove from a card? By the way, I think apparently you would be amazed at what my mother can do to stains etc. with just warm water.

Oh & I may be splitting hairs but I have not been posting chemistry debates as you say? - you can go back to searching your desktop cache of funny pictures you swiped from the Internet etc. in hopes that you find something that fits what you are not able to verbalize....

[Peter_Spaeth]

If Towle's services are so kosher, why don't people disclose them as an affirmative selling point?

When's the last time anyone saw a card for sale saying "appearance much improved after cleaning by Dick Towle"?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

John,
I do not like nor do I buy into the "oh water.... its so gentle... I think i'll just toss a couple of cards in a bowl... because, well just because". If you think people remove or restore or clean-up cards to the point that one barely can tell the difference before & after the water soak your just fooling yourself. We have seen examples here on the board where people made huge differences in the before & after with just water. And of course money is never the motivator when water is used right?

Shawn, it's not "just because" - it's to remove stuff as unobtrusively as possible. And in general, water does not usually have a huge effect on 'before and after', unless the card had a lot of water-soluble glued on paper on the back. People who have soaked with water understand this and have explained it.

The only reason you and others don't seem to understand it, is possibly because you've never done it. Fair enough, but I can promise you - I'm not lying when I tell you what soaking can or cannot do, based on my own personal experience.

I cannot tell you about chemicals, and because of this, I think their use should be disclosed, especially for examples like the Plank - if for no other reason, than because when the buyer of the cleaned card attempts to trade or re-sell, he's likely to have to answer questions if he encounters someone with 'before' pics, and he was unaware that a cleaning had taken place. The impact on value could be very substantial.

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Shawn, it's not "just because" - it's to remove stuff as unobtrusively as possible. And in general, water does not usually have a huge effect on 'before and after', unless the card had a lot of water-soluble glued on paper on the back. People who have soaked with water understand this and have explained it.

The only reason you and others don't seem to understand it, is possibly because you've never done it. Fair enough, but I can promise you - I'm not lying when I tell you what soaking can or cannot do, based on my own personal experience.

I cannot tell you about chemicals, and because of this, I think their use should be disclosed, especially for examples like the Plank - if for no other reason, than because when the buyer of the cleaned card attempts to trade or re-sell, he's likely to have to answer questions if he encounters someone with 'before' pics, and he was unaware that a cleaning had taken place. The impact on value could be very substantial.

Hi Scott,

Hope you are doing well.

I know its not "just because", I was being facetious in making that comment. Your point is partly what I was trying to say - that is people are not just throwing cards into a bowl "just because" but are actually trying to improve the card / photo whichever... But I do not buy that using water is just this hapless innocent thing with no other motive. The use of water can greatly increase the value of a card or a photo. I have seen it before my very eyes on this forum. And I think you know this is possible as well.

On a side note: your response to somebody else post about the effects a "slab" can have on a card does concern me... I had not thought about it... I used to run track - I started when I was 5 years old - back then you would get ribbons and medals for 1st - 6th place - The Medals would come in these little plastic cases with a piece of black foam to cushion the medal. I collected things even at that early of an age of which included coins - Well I had what I thought was a great Idea and used those little plastic cases to store my prized coins in - Over the years I would randomly admire them (still in the case) until flash forward 35 years - I decide to take the coins out so I could look at the other side - low & behold the coins are stuck to the foam and have actually had a chemical reaction (to most but not all) that has eaten away at the metal!!!! Here I thought I was such a smart kid and now the coins are ruined....

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Hi Scott,

On a side note: your response to somebody else post about the effects a "slab" can have on a card does concern me... I had not thought about it... I used to run track - I started when I was 5 years old - back then you would get ribbons and medals for 1st - 6th place - The Medals would come in these little plastic cases with a piece of black foam to cushion the medal. I collected things even at that early of an age of which included coins - Well I had what I thought was a great Idea and used those little plastic cases to store my prized coins in - Over the years I would randomly admire them (still in the case) until flash forward 35 years - I decide to take the coins out so I could look at the other side - low & behold the coins are stuck to the foam and have actually had a chemical reaction (to most but not all) that has eaten away at the metal!!!! Here I thought I was such a smart kid and now the coins are ruined....

I don't think that was me. I'm not so concerned about the effects of the plastic on the cards, but they do smell plasticey when removed, and I would rather they smelled like old cardboard. Regarding coins - after a few years, I often see grayish spots on proof coins. That was partly the reason that I stopped collecting them - including those flimsy thin plastic enclosures the U.S. mint used. I still have all of them, so I can show some ugly proof scans if anyone is interested.

Also, I always seem to miss those facetious remarks - I can dish them out, but I can't understand them when others do it

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

John,

I do not care for the Plank at all... Nor I do not care for your removed cards out of scrapbooks... Yes I am throwing out hypotheticals but they are not unreasonable situations...

I do not like nor do I buy into the "oh water.... its so gentle... I think i'll just toss a couple of cards in a bowl... because, well just because". If you think people remove or restore or clean-up cards to the point that one barely can tell the difference before & after the water soak your just fooling yourself. We have seen examples here on the board where people made huge differences in the before & after with just water. And of course money is never the motivator when water is used right?

You tell me how you know what in the world a bowl of warm water would remove from a card? By the way, I think apparently you would be amazed at what my mother can do to stains etc. with just warm water.

Oh & I may be splitting hairs but I have not been posting chemistry debates as you say? - you can go back to searching your desktop cache of funny pictures you swiped from the Internet etc. in hopes that you find something that fits what you are not able to verbalize....

LOL, nothing personal huh? I post pictures because I find it enjoyable. Yes some pictures come from the internet I use the internet sometimes when I visit net54.com. As for not being able to verbalize I think I’ve been pretty clear on my stance. It’s you that keeps wanting to convert me to your thinking or convince me that work like the above is no different than removing a $5 card from a scrapbook and then placing that stained clearly removed card in a binder.

If what was done by Dick and others that results in cards just like the Plank posted is no big deal in our hobby. Why asked now many times is it not mentioned with pride at the time of sale and hidden from TPGs?

Also if your mom can get work like the Plank done with just warm water then Dick should hang up his “towle”.

John

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

LOL, nothing personal huh? I post pictures because I find it enjoyable. Yes some pictures come from the internet I use the internet sometimes when I visit net54.com. As for not being able to verbalize I think I’ve been pretty clear on my stance. It’s you that keeps wanting to convert me to your thinking or convince me that work like the above is no different than removing a $5 card from a scrapbook and then placing that stained clearly removed card in a binder.

If what was done by Dick and others that results in cards just like the Plank posted is no big deal in our hobby. Why asked now many times is it not mentioned with pride at the time of sale and hidden from TPGs?

Also if your mom can get work like the Plank done with just warm water then Dick should hang up his “towle”.

John

John,

It is nothing personal, at least to me - You took a little jab at me so I threw one back. I mean no harm and I am waving the white flag - My apologies for taking it to far.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

John,

It is nothing personal, at least to me - You took a little jab at me so I threw one back. I mean no harm and I am waving the white flag - My apologies for taking it to far.

I just read my reply to you sorry if you saw a jab in there I was just answering your question to me on you saying I was a hypocrite etc. yes guilty of silly pictures....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the stain removal process as long as it doesn't leave any evidence behind - nothing you can see, smell or feel. For those that do have a problem with it, I respect your opinion. I can at least see where you're coming from and tell that you're very passionate about it.

Here's the part that is bothering me. Some people have mentioned disclosue upon the time of sale. I do agree with that part - especially on something like the Plank. But disclosure shouldn't be a part-time ethic, right? When one of our own board members admitting to "rolling out creases" I didn't see any of his buddies calling for "disclosure" and, for some reason, they didn't seem to be as passionate about it then as they do now. In fact, the thread went quiet pretty quickly when he questioned why he should even have to disclose it. So, again, is disclosure a part-time ethic, or in other words, does it depend on the seller whether or not they have to disclose it?

What's more wrong: rolling out a crease and not disclosing it or removing a stain and not disclosing it?

Very interesting read...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...en+cobb&page=3

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the stain removal process as long as it doesn't leave any evidence behind - nothing you can see, smell or feel. For those that do have a problem with it, I respect your opinion. I can at least see where you're coming from and tell that you're very passionate about it.

Here's the part that is bothering me. Some people have mentioned disclosue upon the time of sale. I do agree with that part - especially on something like the Plank. But disclosure shouldn't be a part-time ethic, right? When one of our own board members admitting to "rolling out creases" I didn't see any of his buddies calling for "disclosure" and, for some reason, they didn't seem to be as passionate about it then as they do now. In fact, the thread went quiet pretty quickly when he questioned why he should even have to disclose it. So, again, is disclosure a part-time ethic, or in other words, does it depend on the seller whether or not they have to disclose it?

What's more wrong: rolling out a crease and not disclosing it or removing a stain and not disclosing it?

Very interesting read...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...en+cobb&page=3

David both are incorrect and if you’re trying to say I give Dan a pass on rolling creases and not disclosing I don’t nor did I in that thread. Both are the same tweaking a card to get a better result in order to profit from the system Dan knows this and admits it openly. I don’t dig it and am not a fan that’s my stance.

However using your stance in this entire thread if Dan removed the crease and it fell under your guidelines that it left no evidence behind you would be ok with it then? Because in that thread you were not a fan and felt Dan was pulling a fast one and had no right to bust chops on grading etc. hence our back and forth on grading standards.

“Personally I don't see anything wrong with the stain removal process as long as it doesn't leave any evidence behind - nothing you can see, smell or feel.”

So really I think this question is better aimed back towards you as I have stated my stance. Do you feel it's different crease vs. major stain and if so why? Both increase the cards value thru manipulation both can leave no trace behind…In that thread Dan took his beating for being honest and saying yep crease gone tweaked the card.

Yet the flipside here is Dick offers this exact thing as a business and even more services that include chemicals/solvents and that's defendable and no big deal as long as nobody can tell. That’s what I don’t get???

Did I abuse Dan nope, but have Dan come on here and offer it as a business. I'm also not abusing Dick (boy that sounds bad) just saying not a fan of this type of work and think its a bad trend to start IMO.

Cheers,

John

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Shawn you are just grasping at odd hypotheticals to try and make soaking a card off a scrap book page in the same hemisphere as Dick’s work of cleaning and crease pressing. Not sure what else I can say. I will say it once again perhaps you will be the person who addresses this and doesn’t go back to trying to split hairs to make a case. Or go back to posting chemistry debates on H2O etc.

You tell me what bowl of warm water removes stains from Planks, brightens the entire card and removes most all traces of toning and age? Also tell me if it’s not a big deal why did the auction house try and hide this?



If not wanting to be lied to and be sold doctored up cards that had wax, tape stains and creases that now are sent in to Dick under secrecy and then sold to collectors with no disclosure at a huge profit makes me a hypocrite guilty as charged.

Cheers,

John

John, I miss that show!