Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Paul how do you feel about a trim that can't be detected by a grading company in their normal review process?

I appreciate the effort to find a slippery slope in my reasoning, but this isn't one of them.

A normal grading review that misses a trim is not the same thing. In any hypothetical where the fibers of the card are damaged by the treatment, I am on the side of the fence against the treatment. What I don't understand is why people build a fence between water and a chemical with the same properties of water when applied to a T206 card.

Stated another way, I think it is more intellectually honest to be against water and all chemicals, than to segregate water from the list of unmentionables.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

What I don't understand is why people build a fence between water and a chemical with the same properties of water when applied to a T206 card.

What chemical is being used that has the exact same properties of water? Did I miss something in this thread?

For me the line is easy the day a glass of tap water can make stains like these disappear, and the day items like this are sold with disclosure about the cleaning undergone be sure to let me know.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=132902

Otherwise you are doing something to alter the appearance of the card found and therefore increasing its value with secrecy which to me is not on the up and up. Also if our hobby was so excepting of this it would be disclosed all the time hmmm I wonder why it's never mentioned in auction write ups?

Just because one may spread icing on a turd doesn’t make it chocolate cake in my book regardless if I can taste the difference or not.

Cheers,

John

[chernieto]

Just because one may spread icing on a turd doesn’t make it chocolate cake in my book regardless if I can taste the difference or not.

Cheers,

John[/QUOTE]

Please do not try this at home! Or anywhere....

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by chernieto

Just because one may spread icing on a turd doesn’t make it chocolate cake in my book regardless if I can taste the difference or not.

Cheers,

John

Please do not try this at home! Or anywhere....[/QUOTE]

There goes my Net54 cookbook deal...

[T206Collector]

This is perfect. How does what you said here apply differently when water is used:

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

[Y]ou are doing something to alter the appearance of the card found and therefore increasing its value with secrecy which to me is not on the up and up. Also if our hobby was so excepting of this it would be disclosed all the time hmmm I wonder why it's never mentioned in auction write ups?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is perfect. How does what you said here apply differently when water is used:

Paul read my post...and look at the link. Let me know when tap water makes major stains on a T206 Plank go away.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Paul read my post...and look at the link. Let me know when tap water makes major stains on a T206 Plank go away.

Not relevant to what I am saying, but thanks anyway. Answer my question first.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Not relevant to what I am saying, but thanks anyway. Answer my question first.

Paul I have stated an answered your question about ten times in this thread perhaps indirectly sorry.

Soaking a card in water doesn’t clean cards to the extent of the example posted above. This is what some of us myself included have issues with in terms of chemicals and solvents used by Dick. Soaking some OJ’s from a scrap book like Jay did with the Cambridge collection still leaves cards that have flaws and would grade likewise. They just won’t be attached too old nasty 8.5x 11 sheets of paper anymore.

However having chemicals applied to remove any trace of residue or brighten a card beyond its dingy dirty state without some sort of disclosure like the example above is not on the up and up. Hence why it’s not mentioned and hidden 99% of the time. This exactly what Paragon did in my example above no mention in print about the cleaning. Once caught hand deep in the cookie jar they quickly changed the online description. Does this seem like something folks do since everyone is so open to this in our hobby and its so harmless and accepted?



So now that I have outlined my simple position once again. Please help me understand how tap water was used to remove the stains from the card above? Or what harmless water like substance was used and why it wasn’t disclosed since it's harmless?

Don't know why this harmless no worse than water cleaning of Plank wasn't disclosed in the write up I'll give you a hint....



Cheers,

John

[T206Collector]

John,

Respectfully, I think your argument boils down to "If water would remove the stain, then it is okay to use and it is not deceptive to hide disclosure." Did I get that correctly? For what it's worth, I agree with this statement.

But, if you are also saying "I would only use water to remove the stain even if a chemical would have the same impact as water would" then I just don't know why you would draw the line at the chemical, as opposed to the impact on the card. To me the impact on the card is paramount, and I do not know how I would ever determine whether water or a chemical would have dissimilar effects on the same stain.

I am not trying to be obtuse here.

Paul M.

[DoctorK]

I have not read the entire thread but have a hypothetical question:

When given the choice between two similar condition cards and you know one has been treated, cleaned, stain removed (whatever you want to call it)---Which one do you choose?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by DoctorK

I have not read the entire thread but have a hypothetical question:

When given the choice between two similar condition cards and you know one has been treated, cleaned, stain removed (whatever you want to call it)---Which one do you choose?

I don't know the answer but could you quit posting so often? We're going to have to impose the 15 post-a-day rule for you .

Actually, I will answer the question . If I were told one was cleaned with water and a Q-tip, and one had nothing done to it at all but was the same grade, I would pick the one that looked best regardless of washing or not. Now if you told me it was cleaned with solvent I wouldn't be so sure...

[DoctorK]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know the answer but could you quit posting so often? We're going to have to impose the 15 post-a-day rule for you .

Actually, I will answer the question . If I were told one was cleaned with water and a Q-tip, and one had nothing done to it at all but was the same grade, I would pick the one that looked best regardless of washing or not. Now if you told me it was cleaned with solvent I wouldn't be so sure...

I try to limit my posting to twice every 5 years or so . I do read the forum on a more regular basis.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know the answer but could you quit posting so often? We're going to have to impose the 15 post-a-day rule for you .

Actually, I will answer the question . If I were told one was cleaned with water and a Q-tip, and one had nothing done to it at all but was the same grade, I would pick the one that looked best regardless of washing or not. Now if you told me it was cleaned with solvent I wouldn't be so sure...

-

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by DoctorK

I have not read the entire thread but have a hypothetical question:

When given the choice between two similar condition cards and you know one has been treated, cleaned, stain removed (whatever you want to call it)---Which one do you choose?

The one treated with tap water from Philadelphia, as I can suck on it in emergencies and get any appropriate minerals.

Whoops - I'm probably above my posting limit as well. Leon - I'm still unemployed and not prone to exercise, so what's a guy going to do?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by DoctorK

When given the choice between two similar condition cards and you know one has been treated, cleaned, stain removed (whatever you want to call it)---Which one do you choose?

Welcome to the boards, I think

If they're similar condition, I think we would all (even the ones that aren't opposed to stain removal) choose the one that hasn't been cleaned.

I think a better question would be something like, "If given the choice between to of the same cards:

one that has a NM appearance, but has been cleaned, or
one that is EXish that hasn't been cleaned

Which one would you choose?"

[DoctorK]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Welcome to the boards, I think

If they're similar condition, I think we would all (even the ones that aren't opposed to stain removal) choose the one that hasn't been cleaned.

I think a better question would be something like, "If given the choice between to of the same cards:

one that has a NM appearance, but has been cleaned, or
one that is EXish that hasn't been cleaned

Which one would you choose?"

To those that do not mind treatment, would it matter which card you received (treated or non treated)? Assuming all other things about the cards were equal.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by DoctorK

To those that do not mind treatment, would it matter which card you received (treated or non treated)? Assuming all other things about the cards were equal.

I think members have expressed their views (and you have gotten a lot of free press). Can we please kill this thread?

[Sean1125]

Problem solved.

[wonkaticket]

Shawn, not trying to corner you but you seem to have some "stones" if you will. Since everyone else seems to ignore this question perhaps you can answer?

If what was done by Dick and others that results in cards just like the Plank posted is no big deal in our hobby. Why asked now many times is it not mentioned with pride at the time of sale and hidden from TPGs?

I actually would enjoy hearing your POV on the above question since you seem to be in the camp that what Dick does is not a big deal.

Cheers,

John

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Shawn, not trying to corner you but you seem to have some "stones" if you will. Since everyone else seems to ignore this question perhaps you can answer?

If what was done by Dick and others that results in cards just like the Plank posted is no big deal in our hobby. Why asked now many times is it not mentioned with pride at the time of sale and hidden from TPGs?

I actually would enjoy hearing your POV on the above question since you seem to be in the camp that what Dick does is not a big deal.

Cheers,

John

John,

No "cornering" felt Bare with me - it may take a few post before I answer your question. I am not real sure about the angle you are taking with the question?

First attempt: If you feel that "revealing" who the person is that conserved, cleaned, "their term", "your term" the card, all of the sudden justifies or validates the practice I am going to call BS... I collect all kinds of things of which include furniture, paintings etc.. Some things do come with a disclosure as to who, what, where for the restoration and while there are many reputable folks that do these things - I am going to say that for the most part it is not bragged about as to who did the work. There is a place here in town that has been in business for close to 100 years that does anything from framing to very detailed restorations and even have some of their work at the Hall of Fame. They will tell you - there biggest promoter is word of mouth. They cannot stick stickers etc. to a lot of these items and I don't think they want to. Do these folks at the shop feel guilty for what they do? No. Do they assume their client feels guilty for hiring them to restore X? No. You assuming something wrong is occurring because there is a closed door and no one is running out announcing "hey I just had my card restored" makes me feel like you have something to hide.

By the way, this shop has an amazing reputation and from my experience has an open door policy - But be advised, it scared the shit out of me seeing the state of some of the items they were restoring, caused by their own hand! Scraping paint? or what ever they were doing...

I will say that a poor restoration job on a lot of items will bring down the price of most things, a good restoration job will bring the price up - in my experience - who the restorer is - does not have a bearing on the price. My one caveat on this is that I think folks who deal in motorcycles & cars will sometimes pay a premium based on who did the restoration.

I liken some of what your saying to my Son coming up to me and telling me ("dad, I just shot and killed an Eagle with my pellet gun, I did not want to get in trouble so I came and told you the truth"). This is wear I say "Son, you did the right thing by telling me the truth, but telling the truth does not make it right". "Now your grounded for a damn year go to your room". This is an extreme example But hopefully I make my point.? That is, you seem like you would have no problem if all was revealed and I question that.

I do not separate what you have had done to your cards (which you did not mention who removed those cards for you) from what other people had Dick do to theirs. I am a purest - leave it alone!

I am getting bombarded here at work - so please bare with me in regards to grammar and continuity...

[wonkaticket]

Shawn I appreciate your reply. I think you went deeper than what I was asking and made some fair points.

Mine was more a simple approach. It’s well known and accepted restoration and cleaning in certain circles and collectibles but never has been in this hobby. A lot of folks here seem to take the stance no big deal as long as I can’t tell.

So my question was more if it is in fact no big deal why not just address it and get it out in the open?

Simply say in an auction description the card has undergone a significant cleaning removing wax stains etc. and now presents and is graded NM. The very fact that it is not addressed in that way I think is evidence that what Dick does is not so openly accepted, and that taking the approach I can’t tell so no big deal is just a way of kicking the can down the road vs. addressing it.

That’s all I’m saying…thanks again for responding.

Cheers,

John

[baseballart]

John

How do you think the market would react to a card graded say PSA 8 but where the seller subsequently disclosed that it had been chemically enhanced by him?

I've only had a restorer work on one card (ungraded old judge of pop smith, born in Digby NS where my spouse was also born) and when I eventually sell it, will make full disclosure)

I've had a number of books restored (mostly missing front endpapers or split hinges) where the restoration should be obvious, and again, I have and will always disclose.

Here's the latest candidate for restoration, a 1948 Japanese language edition of The Babe Ruth Story. . Might have to turn the H2O up to 11 on this one

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

If what was done by Dick and others that results in cards just like the Plank posted is no big deal in our hobby. Why asked now many times is it not mentioned with pride at the time of sale and hidden from TPGs?

John

I have never had any stain removal done but I can answer your question. They don't reveal the stain removal was already done in order to attract buyers that intend to use the stain removal process.