Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[wonkaticket]

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

[steve B]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

I agree that more aggressive efforts should be disclosed.
And that many of them won't be.

My one attempt at removing scotch tape with solvents went poorly. Fortunately it was a F-G 59 common that I simply wanted to keep it from sticking to the card in front of it. someone had covered the entire front with tape. The tape hade peeled off, leaving a gummy mess of adhesive. The solvent was a bit too solventy (Yeah, not a real word ....Yet) And took only some adhesive along with "some" ink. Totally wrecked.

I guess my ambivalence comes from having a wide range of hobbies and having some restoration being either totally ok or accepted as routine in most of them.

Old bicycles - Original is King, but replacing tires and brake pads is fine for most and full restoration including rechroming and repainting is common. Some team stuff is not what the decals say, and "restorers" have probably wrecked a number of real race bikes fixing "fakes" - Not that there aren't fakes. For most bikes changing parts to suit the person using it is totally ok. It's altering, but can be fixed by changing back if the owner saved the original parts. (Some of my bikes have parts I had to make since they're not available anywhere - My work while it looks ok from a few feet away wouldn't be mistaken for original unless someone had no clue at all, and I've marked the pieces I did a better job of. )

Cars - I'm not active anymore, but restoration is obviously common. As is cobbling things together to make something into something it wasn't. Or if there's enough money involved making one good one out of a bunch of wrecks. ----same issues with disclosure.

Coins - Original is best, and cleaning is frowned on. But nearly all bright silver coins have been cleaned to some degree.

Stamps - Probably the closes to cards. Altering is very bad, repairs as well unless they're disclosed. most are so amateur they don't need much disclosure. A missing corner "repaired" by gluing a corner from a similar stamp onto the back is pretty obvious. But removing old hinges is ok, and especially valuable stuff that's fragile can be stabilized. Lots of fakes, and their version of TPG takes its time rather than rushing the most expensive stuff. (And gets it right nearly all the time)

Antiques - undisclosed repairs aren't ok. different stuff has different standards. most of the stuff is functional or for display, so while originality is massively important nobody looks down on a properly done restoration of something that was basically ruined somewhere along the line.
So the tall chest of drawers on Antiques roadshow that was refinished because the owner didn't like the original finish - not so good. For the one where you find it covered in "antique" paint and toleware decals from the early 1970's refinishing is ok.
A lot of furniture at lower level antique auctions and shops is repaired. Sometimes with old wood and old screws. It's pretty much accepted. Nobody gets too excited if the $500 sideboard has had the drawer that came apart reglued and the missing screw from one leg replaced.

Most older mechanical stuff like clocks and science equipment needs maintainance to prevent needing major repairs. Replacing something like a mainspring isn't a bad thing if it's needed.



I get that if someone is paying a LOT of money for originality then the item should be original.

But some damage that's easily undone probably should be.


Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

More likely, the FBI will say if collectors don't seem to care, why should we?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

I get what you're saying John, but that's just not the case. We can't just play "what if's" and if we did, this site would be frustrating as hell. The standing point from the other side has been that this sort of cleaning is not leaving any evidence of altering or defects...so why are we calling it unethical? If cleaning a card alters it in any way, I would be against it...so I guess time may be the determining factor here for me. But to just say it's wrong without having something to fully back it up just seems like a weak rebuttal to the original statement.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

I get what you're saying John, but that's just not the case. We can't just play "what if's" and if we did, this site would be frustrating as hell. The standing point from the other side has been that this sort of cleaning is not leaving any evidence of altering or defects...so why are we calling it unethical? If cleaning a card alters it in any way, I would be against it...so I guess time may be the determining factor here for me. But to just say it's wrong without having something to fully back it up just seems like a weak rebuttal to the original statement.

Mike, I’m sorry if you can’t grasp that if someone cleans a stained and ugly card to a bright clean pack fresh finish with chemicals and solvents. Then passes on this card into the hobby without disclosure for a profit that this is unethical to some. We know this is the case how many auctions have you seen listed with the desc. line " the following work performed by Dick Towle" please bid accordingly?

If your bank stole $1.00 from you and others each year and nobody noticed that doesn’t make it ok. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Cheers,

John

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Mike, I’m sorry if you can’t grasp that if someone cleans a stained and ugly card to a bright clean pack fresh finish with chemicals and solvents. Then passes on this card into the hobby without disclosure for a profit that this is unethical to some. We know this is the case how many auctions have you seen listed with the desc. line " the following work performed by Dick Towle" please bid accordingly?

If your bank stole $1.00 from you and others each year and nobody noticed that doesn’t make it ok. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Cheers,

John

Johnny...I like you, but you're falling back a little. My bank stealing money from me? Dick Towle cleaning cards? I'm just not seeing it.

Everyone has their own opinions and I'm good with that, but it's YOUR OPINION AND NOT A FACT...that's what you are clearly missing here. It's ok to state it, but to act like that is set in stone and something to abide by is sadly wrong.

Love you bro

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Johnny...I like you, but you're falling back a little. My bank stealing money from me? Dick Towle cleaning cards? I'm just not seeing it.

Everyone has their own opinions and I'm good with that, but it's YOUR OPINION AND NOT A FACT...that's what you are clearly missing here. It's ok to state it, but to act like that is set in stone and something to abide by is sadly wrong.

Love you bro

Mike like you too buddy.

Last attempt Dick is cleaning cards for folks using chemicals and solvents and if they are passing on those items for significant profit with no disclosure that is not on the up and up to me. Like I said if an auction house got busted doing this, or this was part of their operations I doubt folks would be so easy going.

This is not a farfetched guess that these cleaned cards go out into the world no disclosure. I have yet to see a disclaimer listed on any card for sale saying cleaned by Dick Towle. Or perhaps all of the items Dick cleans never go up for sale.

Just because you don’t know it happened, or can’t tell doesn’t make it all good in my book hence my bank analogy.

Cheers,

John

[Section103]

I don't have an issue with people using Dick's services, but I do believe full disclosure should be made if and when the cards are ever sold and every time after. That disclosure just doesn't happen and it is problematic for the hobby.

[smokelessjoe]

The cards have already been altered when they get to Dick.... The cards have been manipulated by humans... Its not like Dick is the first one to get to the cards and screw around with them... Somebody else has already dumped something, spit on em, left them out in the rain, glued them etc...

Some T206s have been autographed / "altered" and now they bring more money... Is this acceptable?? It has INK written across the front & brings more money?

Side Note:

I should clarify... We have had this debate several times over the years - I've always thought it was intriguing. I like to play the devil on this one because it is just my nature. I try to keep everything in my life in an as found state Hell, it even bothers me to clean the dirt off arrowheads when I find them. My reasoning for leaving things alone has nothing to do with anything other than I am weird about it...

I remember some years back Leon had a Horner Composite "cleaned" and everyone whooped and hollered. The cleaning did make it more visible and I liked it, but I have to admit I did cringe a little.

The argument about chemicals on cards drives me nuts though There is already a chemical / stain on the card and who is to say what issues will arise from it?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

The cards have already been altered when they get to Dick.... The cards have been manipulated by humans... Its not like Dick is the first one to get to the cards and screw around with them... Somebody else has already dumped something, spit on em, left them out in the rain, glued them etc...

Some T206s have been autographed / "altered" and now they bring more money... Is this acceptable?? It has INK written across the front & brings more money?

Side Note:

I should clarify... We have had this debate several times over the years - I've always thought it was intriguing. I like to play the devil on this one because it is just my nature. I try to keep everything in my life in an as found state Hell, it even bothers me to clean the dirt off arrowheads when I find them. My reasoning for leaving things alone has nothing to do with anything other than I am weird about it...

I remember some years back Leon had a Horner Composite "cleaned" and everyone whooped and hollered. The cleaning did make it more visible and I liked it, but I have to admit I did cringe a little.

The argument about chemicals on cards drives me nuts though There is already a chemical / stain on the card and who is to say what issues will arise from it?

Correction. "I" didn't have my Horner Composite cleaned. It came that way. The guy before me had it done. Had it not then I probably would have sent it in. It was also de-acidified and preserved. It also had a tiny, tiny bit of in-painting done to it. I will disclose all of this when I go to sell it. I feel it enhanced the value because now it is more stable. The one thing I did do to it is I had it archival framed. They did a magnificent job on it. I am still on the fence about Dick's work but I am not on the fence with taking things off that aren't supposed to be there in the first place. Anything more than water and I am not so sure about. But water, I don't care the least bit.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Anything more than water and I am not so sure about. But water, I don't care the least bit.

I'm sitting on the fence next to Leon, hoping it doesn't break.

[glynparson]

Someone can prove to me it does not increase the speed of degradation of the card I can not support the process. I see it akin to repairing or repainting a card as you are adding something. FYI some of the chemicals due leave trace tells according to Kevin Saucier when he and I discussed some of this stuff a few years back.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Water is a chemical, and ANY alterations are detectable with the correct knowledge and equipment.

[Paul S]

and pyrolysis

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Water is a chemical, and ANY alterations are detectable with the correct knowledge and equipment.

Agreed. For your 5 bucks you aren't hiring a crime lab when you submit a card to a TPG service.

[oldjudge]

Paintings are one of a kind pieces and any restoration is documented and follows the painting around. Cards are not, for the most part, one of a kind, and restoration is not disclosed. That is the difference. Cards, for the most part, are restored with the intent to deceive future buyers(just my opinion).

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Paintings are one of a kind pieces and any restoration is documented and follows the painting around. Cards are not, for the most part, one of a kind, and restoration is not disclosed. That is the difference. Cards, for the most part, are restored with the intent to deceive future buyers(just my opinion).

This is the exact point I was going to make.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

....

John

This is intriguing - would the FBI consider chemical treatment the same as they considered trimming? If neither was disclosed, both cards ended up slabbed, and the 'work' was done to enhance value without disclosure, other than the fact that the 'stuff removed wasn't actually 'card', it sure seems like the same thing.

[smokelessjoe]

Sorry about that Leon.. That was some time ago... I thought I remembered you asking about whether you should or shouldn't have it cleaned - but that was probably in regards to having it framed. My apologies.

[barrysloate]

I actually don't think cleaning a card is such a terrible thing, but I do believe a cleaned card should receive nothing more than an AUTH grade. Problem is, the graders can't detect the cleaning. That's not a good thing.