Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

I get what you're saying John, but that's just not the case. We can't just play "what if's" and if we did, this site would be frustrating as hell. The standing point from the other side has been that this sort of cleaning is not leaving any evidence of altering or defects...so why are we calling it unethical? If cleaning a card alters it in any way, I would be against it...so I guess time may be the determining factor here for me. But to just say it's wrong without having something to fully back it up just seems like a weak rebuttal to the original statement.

Mike, I’m sorry if you can’t grasp that if someone cleans a stained and ugly card to a bright clean pack fresh finish with chemicals and solvents. Then passes on this card into the hobby without disclosure for a profit that this is unethical to some. We know this is the case how many auctions have you seen listed with the desc. line " the following work performed by Dick Towle" please bid accordingly?

If your bank stole $1.00 from you and others each year and nobody noticed that doesn’t make it ok. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Cheers,

John

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Mike, I’m sorry if you can’t grasp that if someone cleans a stained and ugly card to a bright clean pack fresh finish with chemicals and solvents. Then passes on this card into the hobby without disclosure for a profit that this is unethical to some. We know this is the case how many auctions have you seen listed with the desc. line " the following work performed by Dick Towle" please bid accordingly?

If your bank stole $1.00 from you and others each year and nobody noticed that doesn’t make it ok. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Cheers,

John

Johnny...I like you, but you're falling back a little. My bank stealing money from me? Dick Towle cleaning cards? I'm just not seeing it.

Everyone has their own opinions and I'm good with that, but it's YOUR OPINION AND NOT A FACT...that's what you are clearly missing here. It's ok to state it, but to act like that is set in stone and something to abide by is sadly wrong.

Love you bro

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Johnny...I like you, but you're falling back a little. My bank stealing money from me? Dick Towle cleaning cards? I'm just not seeing it.

Everyone has their own opinions and I'm good with that, but it's YOUR OPINION AND NOT A FACT...that's what you are clearly missing here. It's ok to state it, but to act like that is set in stone and something to abide by is sadly wrong.

Love you bro

Mike like you too buddy.

Last attempt Dick is cleaning cards for folks using chemicals and solvents and if they are passing on those items for significant profit with no disclosure that is not on the up and up to me. Like I said if an auction house got busted doing this, or this was part of their operations I doubt folks would be so easy going.

This is not a farfetched guess that these cleaned cards go out into the world no disclosure. I have yet to see a disclaimer listed on any card for sale saying cleaned by Dick Towle. Or perhaps all of the items Dick cleans never go up for sale.

Just because you don’t know it happened, or can’t tell doesn’t make it all good in my book hence my bank analogy.

Cheers,

John

[Section103]

I don't have an issue with people using Dick's services, but I do believe full disclosure should be made if and when the cards are ever sold and every time after. That disclosure just doesn't happen and it is problematic for the hobby.

[smokelessjoe]

The cards have already been altered when they get to Dick.... The cards have been manipulated by humans... Its not like Dick is the first one to get to the cards and screw around with them... Somebody else has already dumped something, spit on em, left them out in the rain, glued them etc...

Some T206s have been autographed / "altered" and now they bring more money... Is this acceptable?? It has INK written across the front & brings more money?

Side Note:

I should clarify... We have had this debate several times over the years - I've always thought it was intriguing. I like to play the devil on this one because it is just my nature. I try to keep everything in my life in an as found state Hell, it even bothers me to clean the dirt off arrowheads when I find them. My reasoning for leaving things alone has nothing to do with anything other than I am weird about it...

I remember some years back Leon had a Horner Composite "cleaned" and everyone whooped and hollered. The cleaning did make it more visible and I liked it, but I have to admit I did cringe a little.

The argument about chemicals on cards drives me nuts though There is already a chemical / stain on the card and who is to say what issues will arise from it?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

The cards have already been altered when they get to Dick.... The cards have been manipulated by humans... Its not like Dick is the first one to get to the cards and screw around with them... Somebody else has already dumped something, spit on em, left them out in the rain, glued them etc...

Some T206s have been autographed / "altered" and now they bring more money... Is this acceptable?? It has INK written across the front & brings more money?

Side Note:

I should clarify... We have had this debate several times over the years - I've always thought it was intriguing. I like to play the devil on this one because it is just my nature. I try to keep everything in my life in an as found state Hell, it even bothers me to clean the dirt off arrowheads when I find them. My reasoning for leaving things alone has nothing to do with anything other than I am weird about it...

I remember some years back Leon had a Horner Composite "cleaned" and everyone whooped and hollered. The cleaning did make it more visible and I liked it, but I have to admit I did cringe a little.

The argument about chemicals on cards drives me nuts though There is already a chemical / stain on the card and who is to say what issues will arise from it?

Correction. "I" didn't have my Horner Composite cleaned. It came that way. The guy before me had it done. Had it not then I probably would have sent it in. It was also de-acidified and preserved. It also had a tiny, tiny bit of in-painting done to it. I will disclose all of this when I go to sell it. I feel it enhanced the value because now it is more stable. The one thing I did do to it is I had it archival framed. They did a magnificent job on it. I am still on the fence about Dick's work but I am not on the fence with taking things off that aren't supposed to be there in the first place. Anything more than water and I am not so sure about. But water, I don't care the least bit.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Anything more than water and I am not so sure about. But water, I don't care the least bit.

I'm sitting on the fence next to Leon, hoping it doesn't break.

[glynparson]

Someone can prove to me it does not increase the speed of degradation of the card I can not support the process. I see it akin to repairing or repainting a card as you are adding something. FYI some of the chemicals due leave trace tells according to Kevin Saucier when he and I discussed some of this stuff a few years back.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Water is a chemical, and ANY alterations are detectable with the correct knowledge and equipment.

[Paul S]

and pyrolysis

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Water is a chemical, and ANY alterations are detectable with the correct knowledge and equipment.

Agreed. For your 5 bucks you aren't hiring a crime lab when you submit a card to a TPG service.

[oldjudge]

Paintings are one of a kind pieces and any restoration is documented and follows the painting around. Cards are not, for the most part, one of a kind, and restoration is not disclosed. That is the difference. Cards, for the most part, are restored with the intent to deceive future buyers(just my opinion).

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Paintings are one of a kind pieces and any restoration is documented and follows the painting around. Cards are not, for the most part, one of a kind, and restoration is not disclosed. That is the difference. Cards, for the most part, are restored with the intent to deceive future buyers(just my opinion).

This is the exact point I was going to make.