T206 Dahlen HOF Price Impact - Seeking Opinions.

[t206hof]

I just think that he would be as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts. And a starting pitcher today can pitch a very good game go out in the sixth or the seventh and the relief blow the lead for him.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I just think that he would be as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts. And a starting pitcher today can pitch a very good game go out in the sixth or the seventh and the relief blow the lead for him.

The old timers were unquestionably tougher. Those men worked jobs in the off season, played with sub-par or no equipment and literally went to war during their careers. Todays ball players are extremely pampered. I've had the pleasure of watching my Tigers have the most dominant starting rotation for awhile now and not have a bullpen and piss away games in the playoffs. One reason I want JV to have the start of game 7 is he's a stud but he'll go all nine innings and not give some dipsh!t the chance to blow it.

[t206hof]

Hard to not pick Matty on that. 1905 world series. 3 starts, all complete games 3-0 didn't give up a run. Pretty impressive.

[t206hof]

There should not be DH's. If you do not play the field I feel you should not hit.

[bundy462]

Originally Posted by t206hof

There should not be DH's. If you do not play the field I feel you should not hit.

I agree. But...I don't make the rules of MLB and to correlate something I personally don't like with what reality of the game is and applying to HOF candidates is a stretch.

I like your old school view on the game, I really like it. I wish there were still 3 man rotations and guys throwing 25 CGs per year. But, there are several realities that we have to consider in why it's no longer that way. General evolution of the athlete, technology, training, nutrition, etc. Guys are bigger, stronger, faster now. Training and technology for the hitter has vastly improved. People in general are elite physically now due to general nutrition.

There aren't 3 man rotations any longer because if you were pitching on 3 days rest, you'd be lit up by today's hitters. Same reason there are no longer 220 pound offensive linemen in the NFL, because it simply no longer works. Today's defensive players would run them over.

The steroid era made it even worse as pitchers were then competing against super humans (even though a good number of pitchers were also juicing).

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I just think that he would post as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts. And a starting pitcher today can pitch a very good game go out in the sixth or the seventh and the relief blow the lead for him.

So is George Mikan the best center ever in the history of basketball? He revolutionized the position in the 1940s. His numbers, at that time, were unbelievable. He was the basketball equivalent of Babe Ruth, not just Walter Johnson. There was no one close to him until there was. Then there was Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, etc. So is Mikan the best center ever? If not, which I think has to be the answer, would you agree that the reason is that the game progresses, strategies evolve, athletes become better, training becomes more refined, nutrition is better and whatnot?

Mikan is Johnson, just in a different sport. Johnson dominated baseball when it was still a sport that was trying to evolve. You will never hear me argue that he wasn't one of the greatest pitchers ever, but you will also never hear me argue that he would do what he did then today. If your opinion is different, so be it. You certainly have the right to believe what you want. I'm not a politician, so I always just sort of thought that the opinions you espouse should be based on something that you could at least argue resembled a fact. However, if you want to believe that Walter Johnson would post the same numbers today as he did in 1912, power to you.

[t206hof]

I think Chamberlain was the best player ever, he would dominate no matter when he played. And I just feel Johnson would do the same. It was just so much harder on them back then and the great pitchers still dominated.

[bundy462]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I think Chamberlain was the best player ever, he would dominate no matter when he played. And I just feel Johnson would do the same. It was just so much harder on them back then and the great pitchers still dominated.

It's so hard to compare then and now in all sports. Thinking Wilt is the best player every is a very valid argument. Thinking he would dominate today's game, not so much.

Again, evolution of the game. Basketball is the poster child for "horrible revolution". Basketball today isn't basketball. It's guys going one-on-one on the outside and full contact mosh pitting in the paint. If Chamberlain played today, he'd be among the best players in the league, but would certainly not dominate. He would not be physically elite today as he was in his time when he had 6 inches on the average center, hell there's shooting forwards his size now (Nowitzky, Durant, etc.). The perversion of the inside game (mainly to blame on the "Shaq era") would leave Wilt beaten down physically throughout the course of the season and simply not in a position to dominate.

Again, basketball is horrible today. But, the evolution of the game makes your claim very hard to support.

[t206hof]

I think baseball is much worse as far as the players being pampered and stuff. Dirk is by far my favorite player to ever play the game, no matter what era he played in. It is bad in basketball no doubt though, it is all sports now.

[GregMitch34]

Let's see today's pro b-ballers play where they're not routinely allowed to take an extra step to the basket. Just watch some old tape and you'll see giant difference.

[bundy462]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Let's see today's pro b-ballers play where they're not routinely allowed to take an extra step to the basket. Just watch some old tape and you'll see giant difference.

Agree, it would be extremely interesting, and possibly embarrassing, to see today's basketball players play under the rules of say 30 years ago when the game was based more on skill than athleticism/power. Today's players constantly walk, carry the ball, etc. How many times during a standard NBA game do you see the player in bounding the ball after an opposing basket step on the line or not ever be out of bounds in the first place? It's disgusting. And the inside game...don't even get me started...does a guy like Shaq or Dwight Howard even make the league in 1980 when you're not allowed to use your size and strength to simply bowl guys over on offense and mug guys on defense?

I like how I started this thread as a T206 card value question and am now bitching about the NBA (sore spot for me, I love basketball but have almost completely stopped watching the NBA due to the current state of the game).

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by t206hof

I just think that he would be as good if not better. I feel like today's pitchers are just pampered so much. I mean back then they had 3 man rotation, there wasn't having almost a week off between starts.

Deadball stars like Walter Johnson and Matty were undoubtedly great. But they also weren't pitching against any minorities. How superior would the great pitchers of today look if you removed every African-American batter (and nearly every Hispanic from the game as well) from the major leagues?

I love the Deadball era and the men who played during that time. But it doesn't make any sense at all IMO that players from 1910 would be better today when the talent pool is so much larger today,

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Deadball stars like Walter Johnson and Matty were undoubtedly great. But they also weren't pitching against any minorities. How superior would the great pitchers of today look if you removed every African-American batter (and nearly every Hispanic from the game as well) from the major leagues?

I love the Deadball era and the men who played during that time. But it doesn't make any sense at all IMO that players from 1910 would be better today when the talent pool is so much larger today,

I don't see what modern day race has to do with dead ball players.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I don't see what modern day race has to do with dead ball players.

Do you really think that there were no minorities who could have dominated the game if they were given an opportunity to play in the major leagues of the time? A huge portion of the talent pool was barred from playing in the major leagues during the Deadball era.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Do you really think that there were no minorities who could have dominated the game if they were given an opportunity to play in the major leagues of the time? A huge portion of the talent pool was barred from playing in the major leagues during the Deadball era.

I have no doubt that competition is greatest when the best players compete. Obviously there are negro leaguers and other minorities would could (should) have played in the majors.

It's hard to say how they would have faired. My comment was directed at the member who tried to guess how Johnson would have performed against modern day players of certain racial and ethnic classes.

[Orioles1954]

There wasn't also nearly the advanced scouting among pre-war players.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

There wasn't also nearly the advanced scouting among pre-war players.

I agree. We really can't compare these guys. It's apples and oranges.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I don't see what modern day race has to do with dead ball players.

Expand ethnicities and you ultimately raise the level of play. Do you think the competition and skill would increase or stay the same if you played ball with the allowance of half the world or all of it?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

But it doesn't make any sense at all IMO that players from 1910 would be better today when the talent pool is so much larger today,

The talent pool is larger but there are many more in the big leagues that also dilutes the talent. Cobb faced the same 21 starting pitchers for the entire year, now a player will face at least double that number. Every time you played the Giants in 1913 you faced Matty, Marquard and Tesreau. Guys are bigger, faster, stronger, etc. but Id like to think a guy like Cobb could play today. We have no idea how'd he'd hit a live ball his whole career. Would Cobb be one of the best in the league today? I think so.