Bill Russell's Mt. Rushmore response

[TUM301]

Bill Russell to start my team, greatest north american team player ever. After Red retired he said there`s only one person that can coach and keep Russell motivated , he wins the last 2 championships as player coach at age 37 I think. Since we brought up the 2 on 2 match ups I`d go with Magic and Hakeem against anyone.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by TUM301

Bill Russell to start my team, greatest north american team player ever. After Red retired he said there`s only one person that can coach and keep Russell motivated , he wins the last 2 championships as player coach at age 37 I think. Since we brought up the 2 on 2 match ups I`d go with Magic and Hakeem against anyone.

Hakeem was a straight beast...I'd take him over LeBron any day. Not to knock LeBron because the dude is great, but something tells me that we've already seen his best basketball...it looks like Durant is starting to take over the top spot in the NBA.

As for Russell's comments...he was making a point to LeBron. He was simply putting him in his place. I mean, sure LJ has been the best player in the league for a while now, but does that automatically put him atop the best of all time? Doubt it. Could be eventually be considered that...absolutely. One thing that I've learned over time is that a lot of people will favor what they see in front of them versus players that have been retired for some time. I believe I would give LJ a lot more credit if he would have continued to play for Cleveland and eventually won one or more championships there. I just don't believe LJ is much of a leader. I don't completely blame him for running away from Cleveland, and he did earn those two championships, but I'm not raising the LJ flag simply because he built his own team of all-stars to get to that point...weak if you ask me. If he was a leader, he would have stayed put or built a team around him instead of doing it the way he did. Great players make players around them better...LJ doesn't really do that IMO.

As far as people trying to compare him to Jordan...pure blasphemy

[majordanby]

Let's wait till Lebron actually finishes his career before we start dissecting his place in the all time greats of basketball. He's on the path to greatness given what he's already done - but, his career isnt complete. it's already difficult comparing players from different eras - it's even more difficult when comparing players who are only mid way through their careers to those who have retired a long time ago and whose careers are etched in nba lore.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by majordanby

Let's wait till Lebron actually finishes his career before we start dissecting his place in the all time greats of basketball. He's on the path to greatness given what he's already done - but, his career isnt complete. it's already difficult comparing players from different eras - it's even more difficult when comparing players who are only mid way through their careers to those who have retired a long time ago and whose careers are etched in nba lore.

That's the main reason I have the waffling "maybe someday but not yet" stuff in my comment.

Maybe he'll become a better sort of player, one who can win with a good but not great group around him. Maybe not. Maybe he gets better and keeps up with being 3rd in ppg or lasts a long time getting into the top 5 in a lot of categories.

Maybe not.

Maybe my impression will change after a few more years.

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who has won champrionships consistently without other great players? Not Russell. Not Wilt. Not Kareem. Not Magic. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not Oscar. It's hardly an argument against LeBron that Cleveland was not terribly successful. How successful were Oscar's teams until he played with Kareem? How successful were Kareem's Lakers before Magic came on the scene? Wilt usually lost as a Warrior/76er, but is anyone really saying Wilt is not in the very few best players ever? Russell had Cousy and Havlicek and numerous other HOFers, and played against a much smaller league besides. Jordan didn't win for quite a few years, until Pippen. Specious argument.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who has won champrionships consistently without other great players? Not Russell. Not Wilt. Not Kareem. Not Magic. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not Oscar. It's hardly an argument against LeBron that Cleveland was not terribly successful. How successful were Oscar's teams until he played with Kareem? How successful were Kareem's Lakers before Magic came on the scene? Wilt usually lost as a Warrior/76er, but is anyone really saying Wilt is not in the very few best players ever? Russell had Cousy and Havlicek and numerous other HOFers, and played against a much smaller league besides. Jordan didn't win for quite a few years, until Pippen. Specious argument.

And how did Pippen do without Jordan? Or for that matter the Celtics without Bird or the lakers without Magic?

All three of those guys made a team of very good players great. One interesting thing is that the three main players of each team have a lot of career overlap. That makes it hard to compare before/after without the problem of someone being at the end of a career.
The closest I can get is Parrish. About a .500 shooter before Bird, And above .540 with Bird.
Of course the opposite argument holds, Bird might not have been as good without Parrish and McHale.

Miamis two main players besides James have been a bit less productive since James arrived.

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

And how did Pippen do without Jordan? Or for that matter the Celtics without Bird or the lakers without Magic?

All three of those guys made a team of very good players great. One interesting thing is that the three main players of each team have a lot of career overlap. That makes it hard to compare before/after without the problem of someone being at the end of a career.
The closest I can get is Parrish. About a .500 shooter before Bird, And above .540 with Bird.
Of course the opposite argument holds, Bird might not have been as good without Parrish and McHale.

Miamis two main players besides James have been a bit less productive since James arrived.

Steve B

The Lakers a team of "very good" players? I think Kareem might take offense to that characterization. McHale was also a great player in his own right, well beyond "very good" in my opinion. Same with Pippen. My point is even the very greatest players never won consistently without at least one other first tier HOF type player as their running mate. LeBron's Cleveland squad was pathetic, by contrast, so it's hardly a knock on him that he didn't win big there.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

As far as people trying to compare him to Jordan...pure blasphemy

True...he needs to learn to push off better.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

True...he needs to learn to push off better.

It's an art, Adam, it's an art. Something LJ will never do well


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