Opinion on Mantle Inscription

[Michael Frost]

Originally Posted by joed25

Again, I am not convinced the PSA letter that Mike posted is real. Looks like a copy to me and anyone could doctor that up. I'd like to see a color scan of the original PSA letter.

Joed25,
The post was not meant to be a knock on PSA/DNA or JSA. I have nothing at all against them, and was just trying to prove a point to answer a few questions.
The COA is 100% authentic and there has been no doctoring of photos nor Certs.
I have a large file of over 6000 Mickey Mantle certed items by third party authenticators, auction houses and dealers. It is something in most cases I would never share or use with the public.
If you would like a clear e-mail of the actual COA for you own peace of mind, please contact me via my website www.paasaa.com and I will sent it to you.
I feel that this Thread has gotten out of hand and is going all over the place. Sorry

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Westsiders

I stand behind my comment of hook, line and sinker...as Mike has undoubtedly "baited" you guys (Chris and Shelly) into this back and forth. And while I agree that it wasn't necessarily a constructive comment, I don't understand the comparison to the ridiculous comment made by "SS" (I also thanked Shelly, outside of this link, for sharing his knowledge with newer guys like me).

And Mike, please don't misinterpret my comment as being in any way, shape, or form in support of your position. Your touting of PAAS is laughable....and your latest personal attacks against Shelly are gross. It would be the equivalent of people attacking your personal appearance in the photos that you've posted. Such comments just don't belong here. Best of luck.

Sco.tt Rom.ero

Scott, Mike didn't "bait" either Shelly or myself. There was no "bait."

Both sets of Mantle/Martin sigs are bad.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Michael Frost

I feel that this Thread has gotten out of hand and is going all over the place. Sorry

This thread hasn't gotten out of hand at all.

[Michael Frost]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

This thread hasn't gotten out of hand at all.

Out of hand as far as the name calling and personal attacks.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by shelly

Mike youare a sick man. Go back to Todd he will hold your hand and tell you everying is good.
Oh by the way.I was gonna let this go, but how about an answer on this one too. You said Collectibles of the stars didn’t have LOAs in 1997 and that the 1997 LOA for the Mantle posted by Chris was a forgery. So, how about this 1997 Cheetah the Chimp LOA from Collectibles of the Stars? Is this a forgery ? Its dated 1997. And you say the Cheetah signing was some joke but did you know the Chimp wasn’t Cheetah and was never in a Tarzan movie and that anyone who bought your Cheetah signed photos got ripped off with the signature of some unknown chimp? The real Cheetah was dead for years, read the Washington Post. Help us on this one. Those are your signatures on the LOA, or are those forgeries too? You’re so well respected people are forging your name as much as Mantle I guess.
Attachment 119258
By the way is that your signiture on top or was that forged as well. Hold on a second. It was the CIA at the door telling me to stop.

Let's take a quick look at the Wiki page for Cheeta, which contains a large list of all the different chimps associated with the Character.

From looking through the list, I would assume THIS is the one who was used for that signing.

"Cheetah-Mike (also known as Org), a male chimpanzee owned by Suncoast Primate Sanctuary after being donated from Noell's Chimp Farm in Palm Harbor, FL. Alleged to have been born about 1931 (claimed age in February 2008 was 77), to have been acquired from the estate of Johnny Weissmuller in 1957, and to have been "one of the original 'Cheetahs' from Johnny Weissmuller's Tarzan movies." It has been speculated that this chimp, if he indeed has any connection to Weissmuller, may actually have come from a Florida tourist attraction the actor once launched that included chimps, rather than having appeared in any of his Tarzan films. According to journalist Andrew Woods, this Cheeta was also known as Org. Died in Palm Harbor, Florida, of kidney failure on December 24, 2011."

[Michael Frost]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Let's take a quick look at the Wiki page for Cheeta, which contains a large list of all the different chimps associated with the Character.

From looking through the list, I would assume THIS is the one who was used for that signing.

"Cheetah-Mike (also known as Org), a male chimpanzee owned by Suncoast Primate Sanctuary after being donated from Noell's Chimp Farm in Palm Harbor, FL. Alleged to have been born about 1931 (claimed age in February 2008 was 77), to have been acquired from the estate of Johnny Weissmuller in 1957, and to have been "one of the original 'Cheetahs' from Johnny Weissmuller's Tarzan movies." It has been speculated that this chimp, if he indeed has any connection to Weissmuller, may actually have come from a Florida tourist attraction the actor once launched that included chimps, rather than having appeared in any of his Tarzan films. According to journalist Andrew Woods, this Cheeta was also known as Org. Died in Palm Harbor, Florida, of kidney failure on December 24, 2011."

No I am sorry that is a different Chimpanzee. The Cheeta that my partner Michael Wehrmann had the private signing with belong to Dan Westfall who also signed the COA. The Cheeta that hand signed the autographed photographs was living in Palm Springs, Calif and not in Palm Harbor Florida. The Chimp that signed the COA and the photos was Jiggs IV.

Cheeta/Jiggs IV as a Celebrity
In 1991, whatever the truth of his origins and prior life, Cheeta/Jiggs IV was given by Gentry to his distant cousin Don Westfall, the current caretaker. Gentry died two years later. In Westfall's care, Cheeta lived at a primate sanctuary called Creative Habitats and Enrichment for Endangered and Threatened Apes (or CHEETA) in Palm Springs, California, where he reportedly watched television, made abstract paintings which were sold to benefit primate-related charities, and often watched "his" old films with his grandson, Jeeter. He also leafed through books and "played" the piano.[39][40]

His birthdays, calculated from the date of his supposed 1932 arrival in the United States, were regularly celebrated. In 2006, coinciding with his "74th" birthday, Cheeta received an award for his supposed film career from the International Film Festival of Peniscola Comedy. Later that year, the 4 October 2006, edition of the Palm Springs newspaper, The Desert Sun, reported that he had received his first-ever visit from famed primatologist Jane Goodall the previous day. His "75th" birthday was covered by National Geographic.[39][40] His "76th" birthday was celebrated on 9 April 2008, at his "Casa de Cheeta" in Palm Springs at an event hosted by Dan Westfall and Diane Weissmuller, (Johnny Weissmuller, Jr.'s widow). The press and many Palm Springs celebrities attended.

On the basis of his apparently fictitious history, Cheeta was cited by the Guinness Book of World Records as the world's oldest non-human primate.[39]

A literary agent was hired on his behalf for his ghost-written autobiography, Me Cheeta, published in the U.K. in October 2008.[38] The American edition was published on March 3, 2009.

Here's an update to Cheeta's unusual story. Several years ago, Dan started working with a writer on Cheeta's biography. Dan wanted someone to tell the story of Cheeta's life as the world's oldest chimpanzee and as one of the original chimpanzees appearing in the old Tarzan movies. By December 2007, the writer's research had unexpectedly revealed that our Cheeta is unlikely to be as old as we'd thought, although he is clearly old. It is also difficult to determine which movies, if any, our Cheeta may have been in.
It appears that the facts of our Cheeta's past will almost certainly remain a Hollywood mystery.

[novakjr]

Sorry Michael. I copied and pasted the wrong bio from the page. My apologies..

[ss]

Sincere apology to Shelly and Mike. Merely my inappropriate attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Please accept my sincere apology.

Steve

[Michael Frost]

Originally Posted by ss

Sincere apology to Shelly and Mike. Merely my inappropriate attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Please accept my sincere apology.

Steve

Thank you and accepted by me. I am sorry as well..

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by ss

Sincere apology to Shelly and Mike. Merely my inappropriate attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Please accept my sincere apology.

Steve

Well done Steve.

[shelly]

[QUOTE=ss;1199079]Sincere apology to Shelly and Mike. Merely my inappropriate attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Please accept my sincere apology.

Steve[/QUOTE

Accepted

[Runscott]

I have discussed Mantle signatures with Shelly many times, and he's always impressed me with his knowledge. He's made a few mistakes, but he also accepts that publicly and moves on. Being willing to learn from your mistakes at his age is a rarity. Much more common with 'experts' in this hobby to have their knowledge frozen in place by their massive egos.

I don't know Mike Frost, but I'm sort of surprised at some of his analyses of Mantle autographs in this thread. I say "sort of surprised" because I know that having an eye for autographs involves a talent that some people have, and some people don't. If you don't have it, you can be personal friends with someone for a lifetime, and look at a million of their signatures, and you will still make more mistakes than someone who has a better eye than you.

I also don't get why PSA and JSA keep getting thrown into the argument - everyone in this thread who has ever given an opinion on autographs knows more than either of them. I have no reason to believe that Mike Frost is any worse than either of those companies.

[thetruthisoutthere]

The bottom line is that the OP posted a Mickey Mantle autographed baseball (with the inscription The Commerce Comet) that he wanted opinions on.

1. It is a forgery.

2. It was penned by the same person (yes, I know the person's name) who penned the Mickey Mantle forgeries shown in the American Memorabilia catalog listing.

3. The majority of Mickey Mantle baseballs with those types of inscriptions are forgeries.

[Michael Frost]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1199126]I have discussed Mantle signatures with Shelly many times, and he's always impressed me with his knowledge. He's made a few mistakes, but he also accepts that publicly and moves on. Being willing to learn from your mistakes at his age is a rarity. Much more common with 'experts' in this hobby to have their knowledge frozen in place by their massive egos.

I don't know Mike Frost, but I'm sort of surprised at some of his analyses of Mantle autographs in this thread. I say "sort of surprised"

Thank you for adding to the thread, can I ask you which item in this thread surprised you. There is not on Mickey Mantle item shown in this discussion that I have added an opinion on.
Please let me know which item you maybe refering to?
Thanks
Mike Frost

[Michael Frost]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The bottom line is that the OP posted a Mickey Mantle autographed baseball (with the inscription The Commerce Comet) that he wanted opinions on.

1. It is a forgery.

2. It was penned by the same person (yes, I know the person's name) who penned the Mickey Mantle forgeries shown in the American Memorabilia catalog listing.

3. The majority of Mickey Mantle baseballs with those types of inscriptions are forgeries.

I agree and have been saying this for over 15 years.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I have no reason to believe that Mike Frost is any worse than either of those companies.

That's a matter of opinion, Scott.

[Michael Frost]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

That's a matter of opinion, Scott.

You just seem to keep throwing these little digs. I just do not get it?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Michael Frost

You just seem to keep throwing these little digs. I just do not get it?

Yes you do.

[Michael Frost]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Yes you do.

I really do not get it. I feel you are negaitive about P.A.A.S. because of some type of involvement you may have with another authenticator or authentication company.

[kengoldin]

Chris Williams has no affiliation with any authenticator.
That is a certainty

[shelly]

Chris's only concern is not to let garbage hit the streets. I think that you have done enough to prove that you are no expert. I would trust Chris over you in one second.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Michael Frost

Thank you for adding to the thread, can I ask you which item in this thread surprised you. There is not on Mickey Mantle item shown in this discussion that I have added an opinion on.
Please let me know which item you maybe refering to?
Thanks
Mike Frost

I was referring more to your lack of opinion or not knowing one way or the other, when others in the thread had definite opinions - I should probably have said "your response" rather than "your opinion".

It doesn't really matter - my post was more in support of Shelly than anything else. I have read the entire thread - every post - and I'm fairly certain nothing is going to be added that will change my thoughts regarding the expertise of anyone mentioned.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by packs

I gotta say I've been impressed with Mantle's humor. He's got some funny inscriptions out there.

Yes, Mantle did pen a few unique inscriptions, but the majority of them are forgeries penned by the group.

[jbhofmann]

OK I just spent 30 minutes reading the entire thread and have one question:

Why is the group or the forger's names being held back?

[Big Dave]

Chris always does that. States that he knows who the individual and/or group is that does a particular style of autograph, but never states who it is. Take that for what it's worth, without showing any proof of anything.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Chris always does that. States that he knows who the individual and/or group is that does a particular style of autograph, but never states who it is. Take that for what it's worth, without showing any proof of anything.

Ever been sued Dave?
I have been sued twice by guys on the other side of the autograph business for talking about them to others.
And even though both suits were dismissed, my lawyers still had to get paid many thousands of dollars.
When you want to cover Chris' legal fees I am sure he would be happy to give you the names of some of these people.

[Big Dave]

Richard,

I personally don't care if he knows or not, neither do I care to know. Makes no difference in the end.

A question was asked, I answered.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Ever been sued Dave?
I have been sued twice by guys on the other side of the autograph business for talking about them to others.
And even though both suits were dismissed, my lawyers still had to get paid many thousands of dollars.
When you want to cover Chris' legal fees I am sure he would be happy to give you the names of some of these people.

Then don't say anything at all. But this "look at how much I know, but I'm not gonna share" is jive.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Ever been sued Dave?
I have been sued twice by guys on the other side of the autograph business for talking about them to others.
And even though both suits were dismissed, my lawyers still had to get paid many thousands of dollars.
When you want to cover Chris' legal fees I am sure he would be happy to give you the names of some of these people.

Thank you, Rich.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Then don't say anything at all. But this "look at how much I know, but I'm not gonna share" is jive.

When you take the time to do the research I done over the course of a decade, Mr. Atkatz, then you can decide what you want to do with that information.

I also have contacts and resources who confide in me a wide range of information.

I have never, and will never, break a trust and confidence.

[David Atkatz]

Then don't say anything at all, Chris. You certainly won't break a confidence by keeping your mouth shut.
Why do you tell us you know who the forger is, if you won't say anything else? Because we're all supposed to be so impressed with your secret knowledge?
Trying to show off how much you know, while providing no information besides "I'm so knowledgeable," is, as I said, jive.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Then don't say anything at all, Chris. You certainly won't break a confidence by keeping your mouth shut.
Why do you tell us you know who the forger is, if you won't say anything else? Because we're all supposed to be so impressed with your secret knowledge?
But trying to show off how much you know, without showing how much you know, is, as I said, jive.

Then jive it is.

[David Atkatz]

We agree!!!

[jbhofmann]

It just seems hypocritical to me. This thread is basically publicly bashing the character of a man while hiding the bashing of others.

I guess you choose your slander battles in the autograph trade.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jbhofmann

It just seems hypocritical to me. This thread is basically publicly bashing the character of a man while hiding the bashing of others.

I guess you choose your slander battles in the autograph trade.

Joel, what man am I bashing?

[jbhofmann]

Your not questioning Mr. Frost's expertise, business practices or partnerships?

When it comes to the others everyone becomes cryptic.



Have no horse in this race. Just seemed like a pile on of one member and everyone was afraid to name others.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I believe one person is accusing another of having a bad eye for autographs. He has not stated that this person is knowingly committing a wrongful act. Publicly calling someone a forger is quite different. This thread is beyond beating a dead horse.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jbhofmann

Your not questioning Mr. Frost's expertise,

I always have.

[jhs5120]

I know who signed all of these autographs, I know what type of pen was used and I know where this exact pen is.

I know Chris' sources and I know Mike's accomplices. I know exactly what Chris knows (and maybe a little more).

I will not tell you how I know this or what exactly I know, but believe me, I know it. The truth is certainly out there, and I know where it is.

Maybe if you all spend the time I have spent learning these things you too will know, but I doubt it. I know way too much.

[HOFAUTOS]

Ah the joys of autograph collecting. Some people know where certain bad product might be coming from, but it's difficult to get anything going with law enforcement. We know the items are bad, but unless there is direct proof of the guy doing the forging, it's pretty rare for an operation to go down. There are some modern forgery rings going on right now on ebay using cheap China balls. The same sellers selling them and when one name gets banned another one pops up.

[Runscott]

...

[jbhofmann]

Shhh......

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

i know who signed all of these autographs, i know what type of pen was used and i know where this exact pen is.

I know chris' sources and i know mike's accomplices. I know exactly what chris knows (and maybe a little more).

I will not tell you how i know this or what exactly i know, but believe me, i know it. The truth is certainly out there, and i know where it is.

Maybe if you all spend the time i have spent learning these things you too will know, but i doubt it. I know way too much.

+1 lol!