T206 fronts/backs Extravaganza......show us what you have ?

[tedzan]

Is it just my observation....that the T206 guys without Caps appear younger looking than the guys wearing Caps ?

..

TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Rob

Excluding the 6 super-prints (which of course were essentially printed with every possible T206 back).....are you aware that 39 of the 42 - Major Leaguer's
in the 1910 COUPON set were not printed with the POLAR BEAR backs ?

So, of what significaance is this....twofold............

(1)....Many of these Major Leaguer's career's ended, or they were in transition due to trades prior to the initial POLAR BEAR press runs (circa Summer 1910).

(2)....More importantly, it sets a timeline when this COUPON set was printed. The earliest POLAR BEAR press run is circa Summer of 1910. Therefore, it's fair
to conclude that the T213-1 cards were printed and issued prior to that date. My guess would be circa Spring or early Summer 1910.

NOTE......the 3 guys that were printed with the POLAR BEAR backs are......

Clyde Engle (NY AL) ......traded to Boston AL on May 10, 1910
Frank LaPorte (NY AL)
Ed Willett (Detroit)



TED Z

Ted, that is interesting about the Polar Bear backs and the Coupon 1 backs. LaPorte is one of the Coupon 1 cards that I don't have. I have seen a few from other collectors though.

Here's a RH Crandall from one of the 12 subjects....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Ted, that is interesting about the Polar Bear backs and the Coupon 1 backs. LaPorte is one of the Coupon 1 cards that I don't have. I have seen a few from other collectors though.

Here's a RH Crandall from one of the 12 subjects....

Hey Rob

Nice looking example from the Exclusive 12 group (460-only series).

Thanks for posting Crandall.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

Ted
Obviously you are ignoring the print groups and you are talking like it is 3 or 4 years ago. We have made some breakthrough discoveries since then and when you understand the print groups I hope we can have an intelligent discussion about the set.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

Ted
Obviously you are ignoring the print groups and you are talking like it is 3 or 4 years ago. We have made some breakthrough discoveries since then and when you understand the print groups I hope we can have an intelligent discussion about the set.

Jim, I have looked at the the print group charts on the t206 site. Is there a section where I can read about the significance of the print groups and what constitutes a T206 card? I was not around 2, 3 or 4 years ago as I took an 8 year break from the hobby.

Did Jefferson Burdick understand the concept of the print groups? I assume he grouped the 3 coupon backs as a regional issue and labeled them as best he could.

[Theo_450]

but it is called "T206 backs Extravaganza..."

I no longer own this Polar Bear run (+ a half dozen that got graded), congrats to the new owners!!!

I am certain they are happy in their new home!

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Theo_450

but it is called "T206 backs Extravaganza..."

I no longer own this Polar Bear run (+ a half dozen that got graded), congrats to the new owners!!!

I am certain they are happy in their new home!

Theo,

That is a great collection. Hope the buyer keeps it intact and goes for the rest of the Polar Bear set.

[cfc1909]

Rob

the backs cross over print groups and for a very long time we looked for the answers to the set by examining the backs. That is why the set was so difficult to understand. The answers are in the fronts.



Go to the index page and you will find the section that explains each print group. Each time a print group stopped and a new one began the previous one was not brought back at any point and printed again.

[RCMcKenzie]

Jim,

Thanks for the reply.

How do the Piedmont 350 cards contain the southern league cards and the print group 2 or 350 only cards? if I understood correctly, you were saying that T213-1 cannot contain both and be considered a T206 because of the time frame.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909.

I disagree on this particular point. The southern leaguers (SL) fall into TWO, not ONE print group. The first group, which I call 150/350 southern leaguers, was printed from about Summer 1909 to Winter 1910 (maybe into February or March) and is made up of 34 southern leaguers who are available with Brown Hindu, Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350. The second group, which I call 350-only southern leaguers, was printed from about Winter 1910 to Summer 1910 (maybe into June or July) and is made up of 14 southern leaguers who are available only with Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350 (not Brown Hindu).

The 150/350 southern leaguers are more difficult than the 350-only southern leaguers owing to the fact that they were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back (much like the 150/350 major leaguers were short-printed with that back). The numbers bear this out. So, rather paradoxically, the 150/350 southern leaguers are scarcer than the 350-only southern leaguers even though the former are available with a greater number of backs (3 vs. 2).

Edited to add: Additionally, southern leaguers were depicted in Old Mill Southern newspaper ads at least as late as March 1910.

[tedzan]

Sorry guys, but I cannot accept this claim......"Each time a print group stopped and a new one began the previous one was not brought back at any point and printed again."

As the often stated adage goes.....a picture is worth at least 1000 words.....so, my following pictures illustrate the fallacy of the above claim.....Please take notice of the
wide spread of the dates of issue.

American Lithographic used and re-used their printing plates during the entire production period (1909 - 1919) of of their various White-Bordered sets.



............................. 1911 .......................................... late 1909/early 1910 ................. late 1909/early 1910 ................ late 1910/early 1911 ............................ 1910






........... Spring 1910 ................... Spring 1910 ...................... Spring 1910 .................... Summer 1910 .................. Summer/Fall 1910
........v




.............. Spring 1910 ................... T213-3 .......... 1919 ................................ Summer 1910 ................................... 1911 .......................................... 1910





T214 ................ 1915 ..................




Note that the RED CROSS (T215-1) set, circa 1910-1912, includes the White Cap Matty from the 150/350 series initially printed in 1909.





T-Rex TED

[atx840]

Do we know 100% ALC printed the T213-3s?

[tedzan]

The images are the same, there's no disputing that. Definetly the same printing plates.

American Litho. printed the T200, T201, T202, T205, T206, T210, T211, T213-1,-2,-3, T214, T215-1,-2, T227 and numerous Non-Sports sets.

I think some other printing firm produced the T207's.

Anyhow, that's what my research shows me.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Furthermore, more illustrations to support my contention............





.... Summer 1910 ................ 1914 ......................... 1910 ..................... 1910/1911 .................... 1910 ..................... 1910/1911 ............... Summer 1910



ON A MORE MEANINGFUL NOTE......

In 1905, John McGraw made Donlin the Captain of the New York Giants....and, Mike enjoyed his best season, batting a career-high .356, with 216 Hits. He led
the NL with 124 Runs. Mike's lifetime BA = .333 and had he taken his BB career more seriously.... "he would have been a contender" ....for the Hall of Fame.

Hey Guys....you can catch "Turkey" Mike on the TCM Channel all this week, as they are featuring many of the old Silent Movies. Donlin appeared in 65 movies
from 1914 - 1933. Including, the classic "The General" and, the 1927 popular BB movie...."Slide Kelly Slide".





T-Rex TED

[ullmandds]

I have no beef here...but i dont think t213-3 was printed with the same plates as t206? Maybe a copy of an older plate/image?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I disagree on this particular point. The southern leaguers (SL) fall into TWO, not ONE print group. The first group, which I call 150/350 southern leaguers, was printed from about Summer 1909 to Winter 1910 (maybe into February or March) and is made up of 34 southern leaguers who are available with Brown Hindu, Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350. The second group, which I call 350-only southern leaguers, was printed from about Winter 1910 to Summer 1910 (maybe into June or July) and is made up of 14 southern leaguers who are available only with Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350 (not Brown Hindu).

The 150/350 southern leaguers are more difficult than the 350-only southern leaguers owing to the fact that they were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back (much like the 150/350 major leaguers were short-printed with that back). The numbers bear this out. So, rather paradoxically, the 150/350 southern leaguers are scarcer than the 350-only southern leaguers even though the former are available with a greater number of backs (3 vs. 2).

Edited to add: Additionally, southern leaguers were depicted in Old Mill Southern newspaper ads at least as late as March 1910.

Scot

This is an excellent summary of the various printing stages involving the 48 subjects in the Southern League (SL) series. Thank you for clarifying this issue.

Especially, your observation on the PIEDMONT 350 printing of certain SL cards. I found this to be true when I was trying to complete my all-PIEDMONT set.

I had quite a tough time finding certain SL guys with the PIEDMONT 350 backs.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

We haven't seen any evidence that would support the southern league subjects being printed after print group 1 was discontinued (Jan/Feb 1910). Everything that we have seen at this point shows that they were printed as a supplemental group during the production of print group 1 and discontinued at that time.

Originally Posted by sreader3

Additionally, southern leaguers were depicted in Old Mill Southern newspaper ads at least as late as March 1910.

Old Mill advertisements for the T206 set ran from about March to July of 1910. Information on these can be found HERE. If we're missing something please let us know.

Later in 1910 the same advertisements were reused for the T210 set and specifically mentioned southern leagues. These have been found as late as December 1910.

When trying to figure out the timeline of the southern league subjects with Old Mill backs, there isn't a more definitive piece of evidence than the ALC/ATC ledger page.

[cfc1909]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry guys, but I cannot accept this claim......"Each time a print group stopped and a new one began the previous one was not brought back at any point and printed again."

We're discussing how the T206 set was produced and whether T213-1 was part of that. We know all of those other sets reused T206 images later.

At no time during the production of the T206 set was a group discontinued and then brought back.

The super print subjects were introduced midway through print group 2 and were printed continuously until the end of the T206 set. They were never discontinued and then brought back.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Dean

Join the club....the timeline and the logic favors our opinion regarding the 1910 COUPON cards as part of the T206 family.


Best regards,

TED Z

with all due respect, i think you are wrong on this one....

it has Different Fonts with Different Colors, clearly indicating different Printing plates and different print runs than the T206's....its a Different (yet similar) set!

[tedzan]

Deleted

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

We're discussing how the T206 set was produced and whether T213-1 was part of that. We know all of those other sets reused T206 images later.

At no time during the production of the T206 set was a group discontinued and then brought back.

The super print subjects were introduced midway through print group 2 and were printed continuously until the end of the T206 set. They were never discontinued and then brought back.

I am done trying to have an intellectual discussion with you regarding the 1910 COUPON issue. First, you either fail to acknowledge, or you are ignorant of Jeff Burdick's
records which INCORRECTLY lump in this "COUPON" issue with the timeline (circa 1914-1919) of the T213-2 and T213-3 sets.

Furthermore, you ignore the fact that the 6 Super-Prints in the 1910 COUPON set were initially printed as 350-only subjects, along with 42 other 350-only Major League
subjects that were included in the 1910 COUPON set. Plus your claim that the 20 - Southern Association subjects were intermixed with the Major Leaguer's on the same
printed (34-card) sheet. This scheme totally contradicts your own "print group" criteria ! ?

Your "print groups" explanation just does not cut it. And incidently, these so-called print groups contain some confusing, or erroneous info......such as the following ......
"Group 3 began production in the second half of 1910 at the conclusion group 2. When this group first went into production, it expanded the set by 60 new major-league subjects. The correction of the Joe Doyle error ........"


Actually, the Joe Doyle error card was CORRECTED instantly after the first PIEDMONT 350 press run when it was initially printed as a 350-only series subject.
It wasn't till later in the game that American Litho selected Joe Doyle (and 65 other subjects) to be expanded into the 350/460 series. Their SOVEREIGN 350 backs were printed with the "apple green" ink.

But, of course the Joe Doyle card was never printed with 460 series backs, since he was traded to Cinci on May 31, 1910. And, on June 25th 1910 his Major
League career ended.



TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

with all due respect, i think you are wrong on this one....

it has Different Fonts with Different Colors, clearly indicating different Printing plates and different print runs than the T206's....its a Different (yet similar) set!

Scott,

The type 1 Coupon cards do not have different colors or fonts. They look like a t206 on the front and back.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Scott,

The type 1 Coupon cards do not have different colors or fonts. They look like a t206 on the front and back.

ya, i meant -2 and -3

coupon type 1 part of t206

[cfc1909]

First, we are not discussing what Burdick did. We are discussing whether or not t213-1 was part of t206 issue.

Second, we never said major leaguers were printed on the same sheet with southern leaguers in the t206 set. We don't believe they were. We do believe they were printed on the same sheets in the T213-1 set. That is one of the reasons we believe T213-1 is a different set and not part of the T206 set.

Third, you putting the Doyle correction after the first Piedmont 350 run lets me know how confused you are about the sets composition and the print groups.

The first Piedmont 350 backs to be printed were in 1909 with print group 1 subjects. The Doyle error was printed the second half of 1910 in the first run of print group 3 cards, which had Piedmont 350 backs.

You need to stop looking at the set by backs and look at the set by groups of fronts.

[ScottFandango]

im getting the popcorn.......

[atx840]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

im getting the popcorn.......

At this point I'm getting earplugs.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

First, we are not discussing what Burdick did. We are discussing whether or not t213-1 was part of t206 issue.

Jim

You cannot dismiss what Burdick did (or didn't do) to have a meaningful discussion why the 1910 COUPON set was not classified as another T-brand in the T206 family.

But, you will dismiss it it because you are being intellectually dishonest.

Originally Posted by cfc1909

...... you putting the Doyle correction after the first Piedmont 350 run lets me know how confused you are about the sets composition and the print groups.

The first Piedmont 350 backs to be printed were in 1909 with print group 1 subjects. The Doyle error was printed the second half of 1910 in the first run of print group 3 cards, which had Piedmont 350 backs.

Hey everyone, here is exactly what I clearly stated in Post #121 regarding the Joe Doyle card......
" Actually, the Joe Doyle error card was CORRECTED instantly after the first PIEDMONT 350 press run when it was initially printed as a 350-only series subject. "

I guess Jim you are the one who is confused about what I meant....350-only series.
So calm down....and, quit your CRAP ! .... your emotions are "blinding" you to what was actually stated by me.


TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by atx840

At this point I'm getting earplugs.

I don't see how it can be an open and shut case.

From another thread, (which answered my question on this thread about what Burdick's intentions were) I see that it is admitted/postulated that Burdick got it right for the wrong reasons. If that is the case, then the case against t213-1 being part of t206 is very weak, as Burdick is the one who made up the whole concept of calling them t206 in the first place.

[cfc1909]

we used to look at the set as 150,350 and 460. This is looking at the set by back.

Doyle is print group 3.

Piedmont 350 is in print group 1,2,3,5 and 6.

Doyle is not a 350 only, he is in print group 3.

What I have been saying-do not look at the set by back, look at it by front groups.

I am actually calm, I don't post in bold and caps.

[RCMcKenzie]

I have heard that the old time collectors used to group all of their e92's together, without regard to the backs. Not many people today put together a Dockman set and throw in a Croft's and mark it off their list.

I have a nuanced opinion on the T213 issue. I believe that under his thinking, Burdick should have grouped them as T206, but he didn't and that's okay. I would not have been able to collect T213-1 for the prices I did, if he had called them T206. As I have told Ted, some of the best trades I've made on net54 are with Ted Z and Jim R.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

we used to look at the set as 150,350 and 460. This is looking at the set by back.

Doyle is print group 3.

Piedmont 350 is in print group 1,2,3,5 and 6.

Doyle is not a 350 only, he is in print group 3.

What I have been saying-do not look at the set by back, look at it by front groups.

I am actually calm, I don't post in bold and caps.

Who the heck is looking at the T206 set by backs....only ? Are you living in La-La land ?

Jeff Burdick, Lionel Carter, Buck Barker, Bill Heitman, Scot Reader (and others) have well established the T206 structure from both a FRONTS and BACKS perspective.
Many of us long-time T206 collectors are very well versed in the T206 set's player make-up with respect to the various series. I, for one, arrange all my T206 sets in my
albums by series (150, 350-only, 350/460, 460-only, and So. Lgrs)

Many of us T206 "traditionalists" have a complete understanding of this set from a FRONTS and BACKS perspective. And, that your so-called "print groups" are the new way
and only way to view T206's is absolutely ridiculous.

This "new speak" reminds me of the "new math" that was shoved down kids throats in the 1970's. And, very like your print groups, the new math only tended to confuse.

Sorry, but you can keep your confusig print group scheme to yourselves. Many of us will stick to our traditional thinking of the T206 set......for it has led to many ground-
breaking discoveries on this forum these past 7 years....ever since Scot Reader published his book "Inside T206 (2006). It motivated many of us on this forum to delve into
the "nitty-gritty" of The Monster and come up with a better understanding of the T206 set. Furthermore, there was an amazing bunch of guys who were willing to share
their T206 expertise and discoveries with all of us.

Your incessant nasty comments towards anyone on this forum who dares to post their thoughts regarding the T206 set has become tedious and tiresome. So, quit this shit


TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Ted,
The print groups are not "new math"... They actually make it easier to understand the set and it's printing.... And they add up...I wish I had looked at it this way 30 years ago.... You can agree to disagree... But, let's not make this personal. I haven't seen any nasty post by Jim...
Be well Brian

[tedzan]

It was really great to finally meet you after all these years at the National this Summer. I enjoyed talking T206's and other things with you. Thanks for tracking down
my booth.

I see some flaws in the print groups.....the Joe Doyle ERROR card was printed in an early 350-only (PIEDMONT 350) press run and very quickly corrected.

Therefore, Joe Doyle should belong to Print Group #2. As should the initial printing of Kleinow (NY-catching), Nichols (bat), Reulbach (arm extended), and F. Smith (white cap).

Subsequently, American Litho. (ALC) selected these 5 subjects and 61 other subjects for expansion into the 460 series....as is evident by ALC printing these 66 subjects
SOVEREIGN 350 backs with "apple green" ink.


Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

It was really great to finally meet you after all these years at the National this Summer. I enjoyed talking T206's and other things with you. Thanks for tracking down
my booth.

I see some flaws in the print groups.....the Joe Doyle ERROR card was printed in an early 350-only (PIEDMONT 350) press run and very quickly corrected.

Therefore, Joe Doyle should belong to Print Group #2. As should the initial printing of Kleinow (NY-catching), Nichols (bat), Reulbach (arm extended), and F. Smith (white cap).

Subsequently, American Litho. (ALC) selected these 5 subjects and 61 other subjects for expansion into the 460 series....as is evident by ALC printing these 66 subjects
SOVEREIGN 350 backs with "apple green" ink.


Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

Hey Ted
You know you are one of my favorite guys in the hobby. It's always a pleasure chatting and spending time with you (on the board and in person). That all being said I think the way you present things on the board could be changed a little in order to make them seem not so personal. There really isn't a lot of need to say something is ridiculous because you disagree with it. In my response to you, in this thread, I actually went back and changed some wording before I hit the submit reply button, so it wouldn't seem so personal. If you do that you might be more well received and have a nice polite debate instead of veering off into any personal situations. Just a thought, my friend...Thanks for the discussion..kind regards

[frankbmd]

I don't have any skin in this game, but it appears that a clear choice is required by all viewers.

You may choose to fly with








or you may choose one of the other carriers










and it's nothing personal, but I've got a plane to catch

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I don't have any skin in this game, but it appears that a clear choice is required by all viewers.

You may choose to fly with








or you may choose one of the other carriers










and it's nothing personal, but I've got a plane to catch

Now that's a Back Extravaganza I can get behind

[Paul S]

.

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Frank,
Have a great flight.....


Hey Ted,
I'm not sure I can explain it any better than Tim has on the site...

"Print Group 3" page:

During the production of groups 1 and 2, the Sovereign 350 back was printed in a forest green color. The later printing of group 3 with the same back was printed in an apple green color. This subtle color change clearly defines which subjects are in group 2 and which are in group 3. Only three of the group 3 subjects cannot be found with an apple green Sovereign 350 back. The Joe Doyle (N.Y. Nat'l) error, which was corrected prior to the Sovereign print run, and the later team changes for Red Kleinow (Boston) and Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston), which took place after the Sovereign printing.

Be well Brian
PS I enjoyed catching up with you at the National too...

[tedzan]

TED Z

[tedzan]

.
.



TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[tedzan]

PIEDMONT 350





TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[tedzan]

Hey guys,
Let's see some more of your T206 beauties. Here's some more of mine.








.. . . .. . . . . . . . . .



TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[Pat R]

Ted

Not the same player but here are some different backs.

Patrick

[tedzan]

Pat

Does not have to be the same player......the more the merrier. Anything goes here on this thread.

That certainly is a varied array of T206's with some tough backs. Thanks for sharing them with us.


TED Z

[tedzan]

My favorite of the four T206 Cobb's......and, which one do you.favor ?




.... .....................





.. . . . .
............


.



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[wonkaticket]

Nice cards Ted very nice.

[tedzan]

Hey big guy, I really appreciate the compliments.

But, mine certainly pale by comparison to yours. So, show us some more of your gems....I never get tired of seeing them.


TED Z

[tedzan]

.




.................................................. ...... Three guys from the "Exclusive 12" group in the 460-only series .................................................
....




TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[atx840]

Here is one for you Ted and T206 geeks.

C.H.A.S.E

Are there any other player last names that can be spelled using the confirmed backs?

[ullmandds]

Chris...my head is spinning!!!! COBB would work!!!!