Should we maintain a list of suspicious buyers and sellers?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Well, I think that ebay affairs are really for ebay to manage. They have their system and way of doing things. You may or may not agree with their methods, but their profits are greater than anybody's. They've chosen to create a system where, apparently, it is almost impossible for a seller to leave negative feedback for a buyer. That was their choice. But it's hard to create a sort of vigilante blacklist on the side because there would be no way to get off it. I think you have to go with the ebay system and address whatever complaints to them. That doesn't mean it isn't flawed, or that you or I might not do things differently, but ultimately I believe that when you sign up for ebay there must be some sort of contract that you agree to follow their rules. Otherwise you can sell somewhere else...

Ebay does have it's way of doing things, and it sucks. And yes, their profits are incredible. But I'm not interested in their profit margin. I'm interested in my safety, and the safety of my fellow Net54 members, when dealing with new members. We can say "well, it's easy to avoid trouble, just read the feedback left for buyers." I'm sorry, I don't want to waste 15 minutes reading feedback every time I want to sell an item when I could bring up a spreadsheet, hit ctrl-f, and enter the user ID and enter, and accomplish the same thing in 10 seconds. And it's not a vigilante blacklist; calling it such somehow insinuates that I am out to get people that have demonstrated poor behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth. I could care less about the people that would appear on the list. Their names would exist just to save me the trouble of having to go through a prolonged appeal process.

There are people out there like Zone91 who have perfect feedback as a buyer even though we know he has not paid for several items in the past (confirmed by members of this forum). And there's really not even any bad comments that have been left for him. People like this would appear on the list.

I guess it's a moot point, as it's not going to happen. And it's too bad, because I think some of the people voting "no" are making a lot of assumptions about how the list would be managed instead of asking questions first. Hell, if it were a concern of liability, put the list on my website. I would be the only person in harm's way. I would be responsible for maintaining the list, and if somebody wanted to shoot off a pissy email, they could send it to me. I have no problem with making my email public.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ebay does have it's way of doing things, and it sucks. And yes, their profits are incredible. But I'm not interested in their profit margin. I'm interested in my safety, and the safety of my fellow Net54 members, when dealing with new members. We can say "well, it's easy to avoid trouble, just read the feedback left for buyers." I'm sorry, I don't want to waste 15 minutes reading feedback every time I want to sell an item when I could bring up a spreadsheet, hit ctrl-f, and enter the user ID and enter, and accomplish the same thing in 10 seconds. And it's not a vigilante blacklist; calling it such somehow insinuates that I am out to get people that have demonstrated poor behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth. I could care less about the people that would appear on the list. Their names would exist just to save me the trouble of having to go through a prolonged appeal process.

There are people out there like Zone91 who have perfect feedback as a buyer even though we know he has not paid for several items in the past (confirmed by members of this forum). And there's really not even any bad comments that have been left for him. People like this would appear on the list.

I guess it's a moot point, as it's not going to happen. And it's too bad, because I think some of the people voting "no" are making a lot of assumptions about how the list would be managed instead of asking questions first. Hell, if it were a concern of liability, put the list on my website. I would be the only person in harm's way. I would be responsible for maintaining the list, and if somebody wanted to shoot off a pissy email, they could send it to me. I have no problem with making my email public.

Remember that most ebay bids are snipes, at least the winning bids are often snipes. So unless you are going to block the person from bidding ahead of time, there is no reason to be checking out feedback. You just hope they pay and go with it. If they don't pay, you run the auction again.

As far as Zone91 goes, I think that he mostly paid but then wound up returning a lot of the cards. That's not going to win any awards, but it's different than being a non-payer.

As far as your maintaining the list, it's more than someone shooting off a pissy email. You'd have to make judgment calls about who is and isn't a good ebayer. That is going off the grid, man, that really is being a vigilante and creating your own set of rules. If you think checking bidder feedback is hassle, try setting up a blacklist and see what a hassle that is!

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as Zone91 goes, I think that he mostly paid...

Yep, he paid for most of his transactions...what a piece of trash!

Post # 1

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Yep, he paid for most of his transactions...what a piece of trash!

Post # 1

I don't think it's right to go on ripping the guy. He's not even here any more to defend himself. Bad ebayer, no doubt, but there's far worse. I don't think he stole from anyone, although he was an incredible nuisance. There's been far worse, but he did wind up being incredibly annoying and a pathological liar.

But if you're an ebay seller and you haven't blocked him, then you are getting what you ask for because his ebay ID has been mentioned several times. The protocol is decent enough as it is... make your own decisions about who you are going to block/not block.

[Leon]

We shouldn't say too much about folks that are banned from the board. It's not fair as they can't defend themselves.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Leon

We shouldn't say too much about folks that are banned from the board. It's not fair as they can't defend themselves.

Leon,

Please accept my apologies on this. Adrian flat-out lied to me on this board...early on during his tenure here. Forgiving him is something I have struggled with mightily.

Best Regards,

Eric

[cyseymour]

People tell lies all the time. Everyone on this board has probably told a thousand lies without even realizing it. Maybe ten thousand or more. It can't be that hard to handle being lied to, and that was like six months ago.

What is it with this guy that people are still airing out dirty laundry with him six months after his being banned? Let it go, folks, it's over. Sometimes you just have to let things go.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

I don't think it's right to go on ripping the guy. He's not even here any more to defend himself. Bad ebayer, no doubt, but there's far worse. I don't think he stole from anyone, although he was an incredible nuisance. There's been far worse, but he did wind up being incredibly annoying and a pathological liar.

But if you're an ebay seller and you haven't blocked him, then you are getting what you ask for because his ebay ID has been mentioned several times. The protocol is decent enough as it is... make your own decisions about who you are going to block/not block.

Cy,

I agree that "ripping" Adrian further is in poor taste. Out of curiosity, though, I wonder why you were compelled to defend a "pathological liar" in the first place.

Please let me know what led you to do this. I am understandably curious.

Best Regards,

Eric

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Cy,

I agree that "ripping" Adrian further is in poor taste. Out of curiosity, though, I wonder why you were compelled to defend a "pathological liar" in the first place.

Please let me know what led you to do this. I am understandably curious.

Best Regards,

Eric

I am not defending him. I am just against the idea of a blacklist.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

I am not defending him. I am just against the idea of a blacklist.

"Pathological liars" within this hobby should be, "outed," no?

I understand that my role on Net54 is not to be the beat cop; however, collecting cards these days is a hobby fraught with peril. And trying to deal with it has become a full time job.

Punks like Adrian should be forced to the sidelines, in my opinion. Either deal straight or go somewhere else! True collectors have better things to do than put up with BS.

Just my two cents.

Best Regards,

Eric

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as Zone91 goes, I think that he mostly paid but then wound up returning a lot of the cards. That's not going to win any awards, but it's different than being a non-payer.

As far as your maintaining the list, it's more than someone shooting off a pissy email. You'd have to make judgment calls about who is and isn't a good ebayer. That is going off the grid, man, that really is being a vigilante and creating your own set of rules. If you think checking bidder feedback is hassle, try setting up a blacklist and see what a hassle that is!

No, Adrian simply did not pay for these items. It was not a matter of him returning the cards and getting refunds. He made a commitment to buy the items, then reneged. He said he did not have the money to pay for them, and he did it more than once. In one instance, he bought a $500 card, and backed out on the transaction. Then he bought $200 worth of cards the next day.

I don't want to go into the whole Zone thing again, as it's been beaten to death, but before you comment on what he did and did not do, you really should know what really went down:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=169148

And I'm hardly some vigilante. A vigilante is somebody that doles out retribution to somebody they feel has slipped through the legal system. I'm simply trying to provide a list of people that voluntarily entered into a legally binding contract, and are backing out of their commitment. I am trying to protect you, myself, and the good and honest members of this forum that are tired of the crooked behavior that is running rampant throughout our hobby. And as I've said at least two or three times now, nobody would be put on to the list unless there was clear, incontrovertible facts to establish their culpability.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I am trying to protect you, myself, and the good and honest members of this forum that are tired of the crooked behavior that is running rampant throughout our hobby.

I would guess that I've made ~1000 transactions (buying and selling) in the past five years since I have returned to the hobby. That total includes this forum, eBay, auction houses, and multiple other card and coin forums. In that time I have had a grand total of 0 issues. Knock on wood. Sure I've had a couple of NPB's, but in the end I'm really out nothing but time. How have I accomplished this?

- I've been lucky.
- I use common sense.
- I study high dollar items before I make a purchase.
- I pay immediately.
- I ship securely within two business days of payment with tracking.
- I make sure the buyer is receiving exactly what he/she is expecting.
- I only pay gift to trusted members of the community.
- I am patient.
- I never "take a chance".
- I use common sense.

I do not believe this site needs a running blacklist because it is in all probability one of the safest collecting communities online. The vast majority of message board scammers are under 18, deal in shiny cards, or both and that pretty much leaves this little oasis on the fringe. I'm sure some will sneak through the cracks here, but as long as you protect yourself in unsure situations the most you should have to face is a hassle and not a loss. Not to mention the liability Leon would be putting himself up against. I have seen many names called out on this forum before and some of them have deep pockets, huge egos, and a retainer already paid in full. The responsibility should be on individual raising the issue, not the forum in which the issue is raised.

If eBay is the market the scares you then just check the CU forums daily. They offer up a half-dozen names for the BBL list everyday. It is like a sport over there.

If you are afraid that you are getting shilled follow this advice someone once gave me: "Never bid more than you are willing to pay." If I put a $500 bid in on an item and win it for $498 I don't look to see if I might have been shilled up. I look and see when/who I have to pay. Until eBay reverses there "hidden bidder" policy it will continue and even if high volume consignment brokers like Probstein took it upon themselves to police the thousands of auctions that they run someone who wants to shill their auction will find an alternate/friend's/new account to do so on.

I'm not trying to insinuate that this thread was a bad idea or that you are wrong for bringing up the issue, I just feel that being smart protects you in 99.9% of transactions and paypal protects you in the other .01%. (If you're the buyer. )