T206 fronts/backs Extravaganza......show us what you have ?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Throwing in these 4 rare T206's....just to stir up a little bit of late night controversy.

OK, OK....are the 1910 COUPON cards T206's....or what ?

I certainly think so....how about you ? ?





TED Z

I don't think so. Had Burdick wanted them with T206 he would have put them there. Unlike some other mistakes it seems he made, he was intentional in putting Coupons (all of them) as T213. If we want to use the ACC then Coupons are T213, if not, then make them whatever you want them to be. It's not that big of a deal, except they are what they are, T213.

[RCMcKenzie]

To Ted Z's T206 question...Burdick did an amazing job cataloging all the cards. I would group all T206 into subsets by their backs. All Polar Bear cards, all Carolina Brights, all Piedmont fact 42 etc. To me T213-1 is just a sub-category of T206. Even T213-2 and 3 are t206 fronts with very small blue font differences.

[DeanH3]

I'm on the side of the T213-1's being a subset of T206. I know it's a little self serving since I have one, but to me there are more reasons for it being included than not.

[tedzan]

Dean

Join the club....the timeline and the logic favors our opinion regarding the 1910 COUPON cards as part of the T206 family.


Best regards,

TED Z

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Dean

Join the club....the timeline and the logic favors our opinion regarding the 1910 COUPON cards as part of the T206 family.


Best regards,

TED Z

with all due respect, i think you are wrong on this one....

it has Different Fonts with Different Colors, clearly indicating different Printing plates and different print runs than the T206's....its a Different (yet similar) set!

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

with all due respect, i think you are wrong on this one....

it has Different Fonts with Different Colors, clearly indicating different Printing plates and different print runs than the T206's....its a Different (yet similar) set!

Scott,

The type 1 Coupon cards do not have different colors or fonts. They look like a t206 on the front and back.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Scott,

The type 1 Coupon cards do not have different colors or fonts. They look like a t206 on the front and back.

ya, i meant -2 and -3

coupon type 1 part of t206

[cfc1909]

First, we are not discussing what Burdick did. We are discussing whether or not t213-1 was part of t206 issue.

Second, we never said major leaguers were printed on the same sheet with southern leaguers in the t206 set. We don't believe they were. We do believe they were printed on the same sheets in the T213-1 set. That is one of the reasons we believe T213-1 is a different set and not part of the T206 set.

Third, you putting the Doyle correction after the first Piedmont 350 run lets me know how confused you are about the sets composition and the print groups.

The first Piedmont 350 backs to be printed were in 1909 with print group 1 subjects. The Doyle error was printed the second half of 1910 in the first run of print group 3 cards, which had Piedmont 350 backs.

You need to stop looking at the set by backs and look at the set by groups of fronts.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

To Ted Z's T206 question...Burdick did an amazing job cataloging all the cards. I would group all T206 into subsets by their backs. All Polar Bear cards, all Carolina Brights, all Piedmont fact 42 etc. To me T213-1 is just a sub-category of T206. Even T213-2 and 3 are t206 fronts with very small blue font differences.

Rob

I like the way you think (regarding the 1910 COUPON cards).

So, what is your thinking regarding the 1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1) cards with respect to their T206 "cousins" ?









TED Z

[Texxxx]

I maybe in a class of my own but I have always felt that the T213 and T215 type 1's where part of the T206 set. I think the type 2 & 3's where after the T206 was finished. I know they used the same picture plates but that is seen with lots of other sets also.

[Sean]

Ted, here's another question: Is there a difference between the 1910 Red Cross and the 1912 Red Cross?

Can you please post a scan of each back?

[Texxxx]

The backs are the same. The type 1 has brown lettering on front like the t206 and the type 2 had blue lettering.

[RCMcKenzie]

Some cards appear in both series like this Ford. Other cards are only found in one or the other. Type 1 approx 1910-1912 Type 2 approx 1912-1913. It says 100 designs on the back, but the actual number of cards per series is short of that and unknown.

Ted, I have followed your prior threads on the topic and have learned a lot from those discussions. I would group t213-1 and t215-1 alongside the other t206's as you and others have said.

Edit to add- Chris pointed out that the grass background is all dark green on the type 2 Ford, I don't know if all type 2 Fords are printed that way or if this example is just printed differently.

[cfc1909]

Rob

if you study the print groups in t206 and apply that knowledge to the t213-1 set and the t215-1 set you will be able to realize Burdick got these correct and they are not part of the t206 set although the same fronts are used.

[tedzan]

Six T206 Super-Prints with 1910 COUPON backs





.....

..





TED Z

[tedzan]

A variety of Matty's










TED Z

[CMIZ5290]

Oh Ted...I want the Matty Sov. 460! Up for a trade?

[tedzan]

Hey Kevin

I acquired the Sovereign 460 Matty 7 years ago; and, I've only seen one other one since then.

Anyhow, this Matty is part of my all-Sovereign set, so it's not for sale.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Three examples of the various AMERICAN BEAUTY backs............


.








TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[cfc1909]

during the distribution of the t206 set there were 6 different print groups. Once a print group was done or discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not brought back or printed again.

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909. The Coupon t213-1 was issued after December 1909. This fact makes Burdick correct that the Coupon t213-1 needed is own ACC designation separate from t206.

For some time now the mysteries of the t206 set have been tried to be answered by examining the backs. This does answer many questions but not all. Take the time to examine the fronts and understand the print groups and that will give a more compete understanding of the 206 set.

I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

during the distribution of the t206 set there were 6 different print groups. Once a print group was done or discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not
brought back or printed again.

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909. The Coupon t213-1 was issued after December 1909. This fact makes Burdick correct
that the Coupon t213-1 needed is own ACC designation separate from t206.

For some time now the mysteries of the t206 set have been tried to be answered by examining the backs. This does answer many questions but not all. Take the time to
examine the fronts and understand the print groups and that will give a more compete understanding of the 206 set.

I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set

Whoa......pre-printed sheets of FRONTS were NOT...."discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not brought back or printed again."

These sheets were subsequently re-used to create the T213 series of sets, T214 set, and the T215 sets.

The printing plates of the 20 subjects in the Southern Association were used circa Spring/Summer 1910 to print the 1910 COUPON set's Southern Leaguers.

It is a known fact that Burdick "blew" the classifying of this set because his records indicate that his timeline 1914-1919 for the T213-1 set was obviously
INCORRECT.



The significance of the study of the various T206 backs has provided us valuable insight and timelines to when certain T-brands were printed and issued.
Illustrated here is my A-B-C-D connection (issued circa Summer 1910**). Note the stylistic design of the "COUPON" back is virtually identical to the other
4 designs.





Another breakthrough in understanding the T206 set occurred in 2007 here on Net54 when Art Martineau had observed a distinct difference in the color of certain
SOVEREIGN 350 backs. I had just completed my all-SOVEREIGN set of 402 cards in 2007. From this complete set we identified that 66 of the cards were printed in
"apple green" ink.

SOVEREIGN "apple green" backs vs "forest green" backs. These 66 cards identify the subsequent 350/460 Series subjects in the T206 set.

Forest green
column............v v................................ Apple Green array ...............................v






Studying the the various T206 backs led to my theory of the BROAD LEAF 460
and red HINDU backs of the 350/460 series having been printed simultaneously.




Further studying of the various T206 backs led to my theory of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
and UZIT backs of the 350/460 series having been printed simultaneously.

Furthermore, regarding the 350/460 cards the matched BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU subjects
are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with respect to the matched AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT subjects.






AND......I have examined the FRONTS....which resulted in my theory regarding the "EXCLUSIVE 12" subjects in the 460-Only series.



A T206 phenomena that T206 resource was apparently ignorant of.


However, I will agree that...."I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set".


NOTE **......This 1910 date was gleaned from American Lithographic's ledger records.



TED Z

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909.

I disagree on this particular point. The southern leaguers (SL) fall into TWO, not ONE print group. The first group, which I call 150/350 southern leaguers, was printed from about Summer 1909 to Winter 1910 (maybe into February or March) and is made up of 34 southern leaguers who are available with Brown Hindu, Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350. The second group, which I call 350-only southern leaguers, was printed from about Winter 1910 to Summer 1910 (maybe into June or July) and is made up of 14 southern leaguers who are available only with Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350 (not Brown Hindu).

The 150/350 southern leaguers are more difficult than the 350-only southern leaguers owing to the fact that they were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back (much like the 150/350 major leaguers were short-printed with that back). The numbers bear this out. So, rather paradoxically, the 150/350 southern leaguers are scarcer than the 350-only southern leaguers even though the former are available with a greater number of backs (3 vs. 2).

Edited to add: Additionally, southern leaguers were depicted in Old Mill Southern newspaper ads at least as late as March 1910.