Can corruption kill this beloved hobby?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

The thing that "rubs" me is that I'd have paid double what that t216 blank back miller ended up selling for...as I believed it was the only one. Many of us have similar lunatic tendencies regarding our collections...so it isn't necessary for the AH's to be deceptive? Just b F...k'in honest...we'll still pay?!?!?!?!

Pete- Are you positive the AH knew there was another and then said that the one they sold was the only one known? The consignor sold some of them privately too. And I am not sure the AH knew about some of the rest they didn't get to sell.

[ullmandds]

Leon...I'm more concerned with the absent creases/wrinkles on Goodwins' scans...the fact that another miller bb turned up doesn't bother me so much...esp since I now own it!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Leon...I'm more concerned with the absent creases/wrinkles on Goodwins' scans...the fact that another miller bb turned up doesn't bother me so much...esp since I now own it!

Well, I agree that disappearing creases are a concern. Fortunately on this particular card it's not really a huge deal since the cut is so scrappy looking anyway. But I totally agree about scans in our industry not looking like the cards they portray. That is never cool in my book. I know in our auction we try our best to make the scans be identical to the way the cards really look (in hand). That is the way they should be. I really don't understand this whole issue. I put a card on a scanner. I don't mess with the settings, it scans, I upload it...and viola. The card looks the same in the scan as in hand. It's not rocket science.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

I know in our auction we try our best to make the scans be identical to the way the cards really look (in hand).

I can't speak for anyone else, but before our catalog goes to print we review each image (including secondary images) to make sure they are accurate. True, it's always important to put an item's "best foot forward" in both the description and photograph. However, it's even more important to be accurate lest we lose the confidence of a bidder.

[robw]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Leon...I'm more concerned with the absent creases/wrinkles on Goodwins' scans...the fact that another miller bb turned up doesn't bother me so much...esp since I now own it!

Pete, out of curiosity, aren't we typically buying for the grade and scarcity of the card? I see in this instance it was graded "A", but would you have really bid any less because of a crease? I mean, the card was seemingly cut with scissors. Do you think the AH was trying to be deceptive in the matter, like saying "no creases" and then this is what you got. In a perfect world, we could touch the card before bidding online, but I don't know how much they were going out of there way to hide the creases in this case.

Rob

[ullmandds]

Rob..."we" buy cards for various reasons...grade...scarcity...whatever the reason it doesn't really matter. I personally don't buy cards for the grade...ever. In this case...I am going for a run of Dots Miller big glove cards with as many different backs as possible. Before these T216 blank backs were offered by goodwin...noone seemed to know that t216 blank backs existed.

So in this case this card is rare. I wanted this card no matter the condition. Does this make it acceptable...even though the card is graded A...is obviously hand cut...and not well...to provide a scan that doesn't accurately depict the true condition of the card? I don't believe so?!

We all know that all Authentic cards are not created equal...just as all grades are not...barring nmt-mt cards...which I could not care less about!!!!

Had this been a 33 goudey ruth card...of which there are tons...and I received it only to see numerous creases not evident on the scans provided...I'd be pissed...and I'd seek retribution.

As usual with me...it's about the principles of the matter...

[Peter_Spaeth]

So Pete, what are you going to do about it? Complain to Bill? Refuse to bid in his future auctions? Ask more questions next time?

[Exhibitman]

"Kill" things? No. What can happen if fraud runs (more) rampant is that the unschooled money investors and casual collectors will drop out. What will be killed is the market for cards. We could see a shift back to the pre-boom days of $20 T206 HOFers and so forth. Not sure that will ever happen but some form of devaluation very well could.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

"Kill" things? No. What can happen if fraud runs (more) rampant is that the unschooled money investors and casual collectors will drop out. What will be killed is the market for cards. We could see a shift back to the pre-boom days of $20 T206 HOFers and so forth. Not sure that will ever happen but some form of devaluation very well could.

Bring it on. I would happily take a hit in the value of my collection if it means the prices of all the stuff I still want go down. This rare back bubble we're in is absurd.

[robw]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Rob..."we" buy cards for various reasons...grade...scarcity...whatever the reason it doesn't really matter. I personally don't buy cards for the grade...ever. In this case...I am going for a run of Dots Miller big glove cards with as many different backs as possible. Before these T216 blank backs were offered by goodwin...noone seemed to know that t216 blank backs existed.

So in this case this card is rare. I wanted this card no matter the condition. Does this make it acceptable...even though the card is graded A...is obviously hand cut...and not well...to provide a scan that doesn't accurately depict the true condition of the card? I don't believe so?!

We all know that all Authentic cards are not created equal...just as all grades are not...barring nmt-mt cards...which I could not care less about!!!!

Had this been a 33 goudey ruth card...of which there are tons...and I received it only to see numerous creases not evident on the scans provided...I'd be pissed...and I'd seek retribution.

As usual with me...it's about the principles of the matter...

All valid points, Pete, and please understand, my post is not to ruffle feathers, more for informational purposes. Just seems to be a very fine line between what should be deemed as fraudulent activity. One can only wonder what an AH does deliberately or not. Unfortunately, when buying, my mind set is almost that of "trust no one" which is why I am really only sticking to graded items-that leaves a lot of guessing out of the equation.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by robw

I am really only sticking to graded items-that leaves a lot of guessing out of the equation.

Really? I have been burned far worse by graded cards that never should have made it into slabs than I have by raw cards, and that's a fact.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by conor912

Really? I have been burned far worse by graded cards that never should have made it into slabs than I have by raw cards, and that's a fact.

Ditto - nothing like busting open a psa4 to find a bunch of surface scratches that the case hid...I trust my own eye more than any TPG any day.

[robw]

Originally Posted by conor912

Really? I have been burned far worse by graded cards that never should have made it into slabs than I have by raw cards, and that's a fact.

I really only look at PSA and SGC online...can't speak for the other TPG's. And online, it seems if it's not graded, there is a pretty darn good reason for it. Above all, yes, I trust my eyes as well, but overall, if they can't see it under their scrutiny, with the exception of a clear error, in all honesty, I'll take their word for it a lot more often than not. It's only human to be biased towards "your" cards, especially when selling, and again I'm not such a conspiracy theorist that they are in bed with a handful of dealers.

[slipk1068]

My scanner isn't that fancy. It sometimes shows me defects in my cards I didn't know existed. I scan a card, see something, look at it carefully and don't see the spec of a wrinkle until I use a loupe. I know my vision isn't getting any better with age, but my point is that scanners, even mediocre ones, should be able to accurately display a card.

[travrosty]

It will never change because many people don't want things to change, they want the status quo because they make money. Like a bookie in vegas, they don't care who you bet on, they make money either way.

TPA's just the start. If people don't like TPA's and their hypocrisy, what are they doing about it? Most are doing nothing. A few are and I applaud them. Are people writing articles, do you ever see any hard hitting pieces investigating the fraud in the traditional outlets like SCB or Beckert? no you don't. Why is that?

Whoever gets caught is always going to be somebody's buddy, that's the problem. So any website exposing the fraudulent activity in the hobby is going to be panned by the network of friends. That's the way it is. Everyone wants fraud gone in the hobby as long as the person being caught is not a friend of theirs or they don't lose money on it.

Any auction house scanning items that don't look the same as the item you receive in hand is going to get even less scrutiny. No one wants to be on the outs of an auction house. Once someone gets caught and has to close up shop, then the chorus begins because their is no risk anymore. Now that I told the truth please let me have it.