Over/Underpriced HOFers

oldjudge · #1 08-15-2013, 05:57 PM

Ichiro spent some of his best years in Japan. Here is the comparison based on a 162 game season:

Clemente: .317, 94 runs, 16 hrs, 87 RBIs, 6 SB
Ichiro: .320, 100 runs, 9 hrs, 55 RBIs, 38 SB

Over his 18 year career Clemente won 12 gold gloves
Over his 13 year career in the US Ichiro won 10 gold gloves

Ichiro was also competing clean in an era dominated by steroids. Ichiro had the best arm in RF for most of his career and even at his advanced age still has one of the best arms in baseball.

And, since neither player was a power hitter, I have looked at the average league leading BA in their respective league during their career. The average NL league leading BA during Clemente's career was .343. The average league leading BA in the AL during Ichiro's career was .347. These are almost identical, despite the steroid affect during Ichiro's career.

the 'stache · #2 08-15-2013, 06:05 PM

How, exactly then, does Clemente become "an afterthought"?

the 'stache · #3 08-15-2013, 06:14 PM

And if we're comparing 162 game averages, do it right. Ichiro was 27 when he came to the US to play in the Majors. So, compare their careers from age 27 on.

Clemente: .329 AVG, 101 runs, 30 doubles, 12 triples, 19 HR, 95 RBI, 7 SB .376 OBP/.502 SLG/.877 OPS

Ichiro: .320 AVG, 100 runs, 26 doubles, 6 triples, 9 HR, 55 RBI, 38 SB .363 OBP/.416 SLG/.779 OPS

When compared this way, Clemente's OPS is nearly 100 points higher.

oldjudge · #4 08-15-2013, 06:49 PM

BTW, Ichiro's seven year Japanese career is even more impressive:

BA-.359, 17 HR, 74 RBI and 28 SB on average

I saw both play and I would rather have Ichiro on my team.

the 'stache · #5 08-15-2013, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW, Ichiro's seven year Japanese career is even more impressive:

BA-.359, 17 HR, 74 RBI and 28 SB on average

I saw both play and I would rather have Ichiro on my team.

Those numbers are impressive for Japanese baseball. However, I doubt Ichiro was seeing anybody like Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson in Japan.

You could take Ichiro, that's fine. I don't have any problem with your preferring one player to another. But saying Clemente would be "an afterthought" if Ichiro had played his entire career in America is simply ridiculous.

cyseymour · #6 08-15-2013, 09:08 PM

The trouble is that Japanese baseball is like AA ball. Comparing its stats to the majors is useless, unless you believe that Saduharu Oh is truly the greatest baseball player of all time.

Everything is babble but if you look at it, Ichiro had the advantages on the basepaths and Clemente was a better defender. But Clemente still produced at the plate much more than Ichiro.

It wasn't just steroids that made Ichiro's era more offensive than Clemente's - Clemente was facing off against a higher pitcher's mound which made it much more difficult for the batter as you are picking up the ball from a sharper angle.

But the metrics say that Clemente was a much better hitter. It is as simple as that.

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