Over/Underpriced HOFers

[Leon]

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

[oldjudge]

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

[cyseymour]

Ichiro is a very, very good player. But if you adjust for era, Clemente is superior. Clemente has an OPS+ of 130 (thirty percent of league avg production) while Ichiro's OPS+ is only 112. So a significant difference there. Of course, Ichiro played in the steroid era. But he didn't have to deal with the high pitcher's mounds of the Clemente's time period. Ichiro might make it into the Hall, especially if the writers factor in his Japan days, but he is not quite in Clemente's league as a player.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Ichiro might make it into the Hall, especially if the writers factor in his Japan days, but he is not quite in Clemente's league as a player.

"Might". If Ichiro doesn't make it into the Hall in 5 Ballots or less I will send you a t206 HOFer.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

"Might". If Ichiro doesn't make it into the Hall in 5 Ballots or less I will send you a t206 HOFer.

Thanks!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

Ridiculous. Clemente would never be an afterthought in any conversation about the position. Ichiro is a great player in his own regard, but he played in an era where offense dominated the game. Clemente did not.

From 1960 until the end of his career, 13 years (from age 25 on), Clemente won 12 Gold Gloves, 4 batting titles (and finished second two other times. He finished in the top 5 in batting 9 out of the 12 seasons he qualified), hit .330 overall and averaged 207 hits per 162 games played. This while consistently facing such greats as Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Warren Spahn, Gaylord Perry, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, Jim Bunning, Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins and Phil Niekro.

And that's not even considering his greatness in the field. He has 254 career assists, most in baseball history by a right fielder. Total zone runs above average by a right fielder, Clemente is #1 overall with 204. The next closest player is Al Kaline at 155. Ichiro is fifth with 109, but on a per year basis, he is way behind the Great One. Ichiro's average is 8.38. Clemente's yearly average is 11.3.

[Cardboard Junkie]

+1 What Bill said! Dave.

[oldjudge]

Ichiro spent some of his best years in Japan. Here is the comparison based on a 162 game season:

Clemente: .317, 94 runs, 16 hrs, 87 RBIs, 6 SB
Ichiro: .320, 100 runs, 9 hrs, 55 RBIs, 38 SB

Over his 18 year career Clemente won 12 gold gloves
Over his 13 year career in the US Ichiro won 10 gold gloves

Ichiro was also competing clean in an era dominated by steroids. Ichiro had the best arm in RF for most of his career and even at his advanced age still has one of the best arms in baseball.

And, since neither player was a power hitter, I have looked at the average league leading BA in their respective league during their career. The average NL league leading BA during Clemente's career was .343. The average league leading BA in the AL during Ichiro's career was .347. These are almost identical, despite the steroid affect during Ichiro's career.

[the 'stache]

How, exactly then, does Clemente become "an afterthought"?

[the 'stache]

And if we're comparing 162 game averages, do it right. Ichiro was 27 when he came to the US to play in the Majors. So, compare their careers from age 27 on.

Clemente: .329 AVG, 101 runs, 30 doubles, 12 triples, 19 HR, 95 RBI, 7 SB .376 OBP/.502 SLG/.877 OPS

Ichiro: .320 AVG, 100 runs, 26 doubles, 6 triples, 9 HR, 55 RBI, 38 SB .363 OBP/.416 SLG/.779 OPS

When compared this way, Clemente's OPS is nearly 100 points higher.

[oldjudge]

BTW, Ichiro's seven year Japanese career is even more impressive:

BA-.359, 17 HR, 74 RBI and 28 SB on average

I saw both play and I would rather have Ichiro on my team.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Leon

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

[bender07]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

Good Gloves might be the worst way to determine defensive prowess. It's a popularity contest and often handed out by pure name recognition.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by bender07

Good Gloves might be the worst way to determine defensive prowess. It's a popularity contest and often handed out by pure name recognition.

Do you think that's the case with Brooks Robinson, though? Or could he flash a little leather?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Do you think that's the case with Brooks Robinson, though? Or could he flash a little leather?

No, I think with Robinson, and Clemente, it was warranted. I think today it's a little bit more of a popularity contest.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

It's so strange to me that we are equating Hall of Fame numbers, SABR metrics and then trying to somehow, someway equate them to card values. It's all about popularity and how we celebrate those players. For more than 50 years Brooks Robinson has held the heart of Baltimore. He is Mr. Oriole, the most loved player franchise history by a long shot. The last Brooks Robinson autograph signing I went to near Baltimore, I met no less than three dozen people aged 2 months to 50 years old named "Brooks". I certainly don't think of his .262 batting average when I buy his cards for a premium. I've enjoyed my conversations with Brooks and he has always treated everyone he has met like a close friend. On the other hand, I look at Frank Robinson who clearly has superior statistics....yet there are endless reports of him being a total a** h*** .... I wouldn't give two nickels for him.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

It's so strange to me that we are equating Hall of Fame numbers, SABR metrics and then trying to somehow, someway equate them to card values. It's all about popularity and how we celebrate those players. For more than 50 years Brooks Robinson has held the heart of Baltimore. He is Mr. Oriole, the most loved player franchise history by a long shot. The last Brooks Robinson autograph signing I went to near Baltimore, I met no less than three dozen people aged 2 months to 50 years old named "Brooks". I certainly don't think of his .262 batting average when I buy his cards for a premium. I've enjoyed my conversations with Brooks and he has always treated everyone he has met like a close friend. On the other hand, I look at Frank Robinson who clearly has superior statistics....yet there are endless reports of him being a total a** h*** .... I wouldn't give two nickels for him.

James, I totally get what you are saying, I too have never heard a bad word really spoken about Brooks as a human being, and I can understand his popularity, especially in Baltimore. That being said what you are saying is exactly what this thread is about, which players according to their numbers/stats/SABR/etc. are beloved beyond what they did on the field (ie "overrated" as it relates to them as ballplayers) and which players are somewhat overlooked despite gaudy numbers (ie underrated, if you will).

[tbob]

How in the world can anyone claim Brooks Robinson is overrated and rag on him while at the same time never mention a word about Ozzie Smith as overrated? As Leon mentioned, Brooksy had 16 Gold Gloves in a row at third base and was a real clutch hitter. The Wizard of Oz was a defensive gem at shortstop but how come no mention of his batting numbers while Robinson's are dissected.
Classy on and off the field, Brooks was the leader of team and rock solid his entire career.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by tbob

How in the world can anyone claim Brooks Robinson is overrated and rag on him while at the same time never mention a word about Ozzie Smith as overrated?

Really? how dare I answer the question as it was presented, seriously. Insert Ozzie's name in the place of Brooks Robinson and the same can be said about him, I tried to stay somewhat vintage and not include the guys who played predominately in the 1980's and 90's. I shouldn't have answered the question I guess when it relates to Brooks Robinson, apparently he is untouchable... His statistics are right there, this isn't about how great of a guy he is, simply from his statistical output the guy is a bit overrated, I thought that is what this thread was about? Feel free to disagree but I stand by what I said, taking out the emotional aspect he isn't on par "statistically" with the players whose cards trade at similar levels.

[digdugdig]

Originally Posted by tbob

How in the world can anyone claim Brooks Robinson is overrated and rag on him while at the same time never mention a word about Ozzie Smith as overrated? As Leon mentioned, Brooksy had 16 Gold Gloves in a row at third base and was a real clutch hitter. The Wizard of Oz was a defensive gem at shortstop but how come no mention of his batting numbers while Robinson's are dissected.
Classy on and off the field, Brooks was the leader of team and rock solid his entire career.

The proverbial nail-on-the-head ...as a BoSox fan as a young-un ... I just seem to remember clutch hitting on top of the great glove...I'm guessing Lee May would have some input

[Mark70Z]

By the way Brooks hit .267 for career, not .262 (not including post season). Another great player from the era Johnny Bench @ .267..then a bit later era Mike Schmidt @ .267 career. I believe if you look up the averages for the era I'm sure these three are all above average for sure.

Many just look at the '70 WS and watch the plays Brooks made, but he did it day in and day out throughout his career. It was "normal" for him to make such plays for the Charm City fans, but he became more famous to the public after that series and I believe he was 33 years of age by then...

I "know" I have to pay a premium for his cards.