Over/Underpriced HOFers

[rhettyeakley]

Underrated: Agree 100% on Eddie Collins.

Other nominees are John McGraw, Pie Traynor/Jimmy Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Al Simmons, Tim Keefe, and Roger Connor.

Overrated: Reggie Jackson, Hack Wilson, Dizzy Dean, Brooks Robinson.

[cyseymour]

Rhett, you are forgetting to take into consideration the era in which the player played. For instance, Reggie Jackson and Brooks Robinson played in extreme pitching eras and actually put up very good WAR ratings in spite of their raw stats. Factor in Brooks Robinson's outstanding defense and he definitely belongs. Also, a horrible year at age 38 kind of drags down his hitting stats. Traynor has the better stats on the surface, but if you look deeper, Robinson was the better player.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Rhett, you are forgetting to take into consideration the era in which the player played. For instance, Reggie Jackson and Brooks Robinson played in extreme pitching eras and actually put up very good WAR ratings in spite of their raw stats. Factor in Brooks Robinson's outstanding defense and he definitely belongs. Also, a horrible year at age 38 kind of drags down his hitting stats. Traynor has the better stats on the surface, but if you look deeper, Robinson was the better player.

Actually. no I'm not forgetting about the era they played in. I have read more Bill James and SABR-metrics statistical analyses than anyone I know. I understand where you are coming from and part of me agrees but at the end of the day Brooks just wasn't that great of a hitter yet he gets mad kudos from people, the same people that like to say Bill Mazeroski is the worst HOFer...ever. I just feel like a lot of the guys that delve too into statistics tend to have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees. Brooks may very well be the best fielder at his position, but his cards shouldn't be worth more than guys like Frank Robinson and the like, it just defies logic to me.

It seems to me that you are really eager to overlook Robinson's shortcomings (ie hitting) and very quick to denigrate Pie Traynor or Jimmy Collins strengths. I don't agree that Brooks was the better player, and many would agree with me, although I am probably in the minority as Brooks seems to be a fan favorite as people in Baltimore love the guy.

[cyseymour]

Brooks was certainly not on the level of Frank Robinson and honestly I don't follow the card prices for either of them, so I can't comment on that. But in relation to Brooks and Traynor, their eras were so dramatically different that when you look at their hitting, they both posted similar OPS+ (104 to 107). But Brooks had a much longer career than Traynor and was superior defensively at an important position. So I will take Brooks over Traynor anyday. I am not saying that Jimmy Collins and Traynor don't deserve to be in the HOF, just that Brooks Robinson is a first-ballot HOFer who was the greatest defensive 3B-man of all time, a legend in Baltimore, won an MVP and sixteen straight gold gloves.

[RCMcKenzie]

Other than hoping to create a debate, I don't see how stating that Dizzy Dean's cards are overpriced can be taken seriously. He was the last National Leaguer to win 30 games, and my grandfather was a Cardinals fan.

I would guess that Joe Gordon's cards are overpriced, but I don't know how much they go for.

[SMPEP]

Very surprised no one has mentioned Stan Musial as underpriced.

His cards can mostly be had for a song, and you're talking about one of the seriously great players of all time.

Cheers,
Patrick

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Very surprised no one has mentioned Stan Musial as underpriced.

His cards can mostly be had for a song, and you're talking about one of the seriously great players of all time.

Cheers,
Patrick

I totally agree Patrick. Musial's problem was he didn't play in New York and he wasn't flashy. Just a genuinely nice guy. Too bad he wasn't signed with Topps in 1952. I would have likee to have seen a Musial 1952 Topps high number!

[D. Bergin]

Looking at the back of Jimmie Foxx's baseball card, it's pretty obvious if he had played for the Yankees (and I'm a Yankee fan), his cards would sell for multiple times what they do now.

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Other than hoping to create a debate, I don't see how stating that Dizzy Dean's cards are overpriced can be taken seriously. He was the last National Leaguer to win 30 games, and my grandfather was a Cardinals fan.

I would guess that Joe Gordon's cards are overpriced, but I don't know how much they go for.

There is no doubt that Dean had a couple of great years, but given his playing career as a whole, I am not sure he is worth multiples of the "base HOF" price in the Goudey or Batter-Up sets. There, he is closer to Lefty Grove than to Dazzy Vance or even Carl Hubbell.

[gavvy]

Chuck Klein cards are very cheap. He may not have been an upper tier HOFer and played in some band boxes but still was NL MVP in 33, led NL in HRs 4 x, had 5 200 hit seasons , and even led the league in SBs in 1932.
His Goudey, Buttercream, Miller, Tattoo cards etc are dirt cheap.

[MattyC]

I agree that Joe DiMaggio is underpriced. To me, egregiously so. I think Gehrig is as well-- when we consider how these two players transcended the sport, entering the realm of pop cultural icon status.

The 56 streak is about as hallowed a record as they come, and the Marilyn Monroe relationship is the stuff of legend.

As to Gehrig, is there another athlete with that same combination of performance height and tragic end? Some may say Clemente, who was a great player and man, but his numbers just do not touch Gehrig's. Then factor in the grace and character with which he handled his disease, what he must have gone through, and to author such a fine historical moment as his famous speech...

In terms of specific cards, I have always thought the Mantle RC was undervalued, considering it is his true RC and so tough to find with serious eye appeal. The centering is just brutal.

I'd have to throw in Ted Williams and Yogi Berra as well. To think Yogi had I believe seven seasons with more HRs than strikeouts, and we're not talking puny power there either. And his cards are so low compared to his illustrious pinstriped peers.

I agree Reggie's "brand" seems way out of sync with the back of his baseball card-- but that one game on that specific stage really did do him wonders.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by MattyC

As to Gehrig, is there another athlete with that same combination of performance height and tragic end? Some may say Clemente, who was a great player and man, but his numbers just do not touch Gehrig's. Then factor in the grace and character with which he handled his disease, what he must have gone through, and to author such a fine historical moment as his famous speech...

Clemente never had the power numbers that Gehrig did, you are absolutely correct, but he was not that kind of player. Remember, too, that Gehrig didn't play in an era dominating by pitching. In the mid to late 60s, pitching ruled the game. Hell, in 1968, Carl Yastrzemski led the American League with a .301 average.

When you're talking about Roberto, you have to factor in more than just his hitting. Clemente was, in my opinion, the greatest defensive right fielder to ever play the game, and I don't think anybody else is close. When you combine fielding instincts, arm strength and accuracy, he's almost untouchable. Only Willie Mays has as many career Gold Gloves as Clemente's 12. As for class and character, how about giving your life trying to help others? Gehrig was dealt a cruel blow, and was graceful in fighting to the end. But Clemente volunteered to head the earthquake relief to Nicaragua. Instead of serving as a figurehead, he got on the plane, and was going to fly down their himself. He didn't just talk, he backed it up, and it cost him his life. Clemente also faced the same bigotry that Jackie Robinson did when he broke to color barrier. Clemente was discriminated against being a dark skinned hispanic. He was outspoken, and proud of his heritage. Why do you think he is still idolized in Latin America?

Both men were great baseball players, and even better men. I greatly respect Gehrig, and realize he never got the respect he deserved while playing in Ruth's shadow. But Clemente was equally great. If he'd played in New York, or Los Angeles, he'd be revered at the same level that Mickey Mantle is.

[packs]

I agree about Clemente. Crazy to think that he almost did get to play in New York and LA for the Dodgers. Wonder how he would be viewed today if he had.

[cyseymour]

Bill is spot on about Clemente. Way underrated. In fact, he is right up there with Gehrig when you adjust for the era, maybe not quite there but if you factor in the defensive abilities, then yes.

Another guy who had an epic career and died tragically was Ed Delahanty. During his prime, he was every bit as good as those other two guys, but some poor stats in his early years as a 2b man drive down his career averages.

[Leon]

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

[oldjudge]

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

[cyseymour]

Ichiro is a very, very good player. But if you adjust for era, Clemente is superior. Clemente has an OPS+ of 130 (thirty percent of league avg production) while Ichiro's OPS+ is only 112. So a significant difference there. Of course, Ichiro played in the steroid era. But he didn't have to deal with the high pitcher's mounds of the Clemente's time period. Ichiro might make it into the Hall, especially if the writers factor in his Japan days, but he is not quite in Clemente's league as a player.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I completely disagree about Clemente. He is basically Ichiro with a little extra power. I don't think he is undervalued at all. If Ichiro had played his full career in the U.S. it would be Ichiro first and Clemente an afterthought in the conversation.

Ridiculous. Clemente would never be an afterthought in any conversation about the position. Ichiro is a great player in his own regard, but he played in an era where offense dominated the game. Clemente did not.

From 1960 until the end of his career, 13 years (from age 25 on), Clemente won 12 Gold Gloves, 4 batting titles (and finished second two other times. He finished in the top 5 in batting 9 out of the 12 seasons he qualified), hit .330 overall and averaged 207 hits per 162 games played. This while consistently facing such greats as Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Warren Spahn, Gaylord Perry, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, Jim Bunning, Don Sutton, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins and Phil Niekro.

And that's not even considering his greatness in the field. He has 254 career assists, most in baseball history by a right fielder. Total zone runs above average by a right fielder, Clemente is #1 overall with 204. The next closest player is Al Kaline at 155. Ichiro is fifth with 109, but on a per year basis, he is way behind the Great One. Ichiro's average is 8.38. Clemente's yearly average is 11.3.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Leon

How in the world anyone can think that someone that won 16 Gold Gloves in a row at 3rd base (Brooks Robinson) is underrated, I don't know. Maybe those folks have never played 3rd?

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

[bender07]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

Good Gloves might be the worst way to determine defensive prowess. It's a popularity contest and often handed out by pure name recognition.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, 3rd was actually my position growing up, I completely understand his greatness while fielding, the problem is the guy only hit .262 for his career. He was a good ballplayer don't get me wrong but I don't understand why his cards are worth on the level of the higher level HOFers when he was great in the field and mediocre (at best) at bat. No way his items should be trading at the levels of Frank Robinson, Yaz, or Ernie Banks (which is the category that his cards sell at).

It's so strange to me that we are equating Hall of Fame numbers, SABR metrics and then trying to somehow, someway equate them to card values. It's all about popularity and how we celebrate those players. For more than 50 years Brooks Robinson has held the heart of Baltimore. He is Mr. Oriole, the most loved player franchise history by a long shot. The last Brooks Robinson autograph signing I went to near Baltimore, I met no less than three dozen people aged 2 months to 50 years old named "Brooks". I certainly don't think of his .262 batting average when I buy his cards for a premium. I've enjoyed my conversations with Brooks and he has always treated everyone he has met like a close friend. On the other hand, I look at Frank Robinson who clearly has superior statistics....yet there are endless reports of him being a total a** h*** .... I wouldn't give two nickels for him.