FAKE packs and an FBI Fraud Investigation: What would YOU do?

[the 'stache]

After reading this whole thread, I feel the urge to take a second shower.

[CW]

I find it utterly and almost comically bizarre that rather than set up a website or mail-in guidebook in order to educate collectors about what to look for in manufacture patterns and pack sequencing, Jose would instead choose to create fake packs to slip by PSA in order to prove Steve Hart's inability to spot fakes, then allegedly sell them to unsuspecting customers for profit. ??? As if THAT will help the hobby and allow collectors to make educated decisions when buying these packs? ???? It simply does not compute. At least not to a sane person....

[HRBAKER]

It's an amazing hobby we have.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by CW

I find it utterly and almost comically bizarre that rather than set up a website or mail-in guidebook in order to educate collectors about what to look for in manufacture patterns and pack sequencing, Jose would instead choose to create fake packs to slip by PSA in order to prove Steve Hart's inability to spot fakes, then sell them to unsuspecting customers for profit. ??? As if THAT will help the hobby and allow collectors to make educated decisions when buying these packs? ???? It simply does not compute. At least not to a sane person....

Did Jose admit or was it ever proven that he sold the fake packs? In one of his recent posts, he claims all of the fake packs he graded are still in his possession.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Did Jose admit or was it ever proven that he sold the fake packs? In one of his recent posts, he claims all of the fake packs he graded are still in his possession.

I also read the same thing, that Jose still has the fake ( fraudulent ) packs. Good for him if he still has the packs, it does not sit well with me that he has made someone, Steve Hart, out to apparently be bad at their job. That is PSA's decision to make, as Steve's employer. Steve may, in fact, be very good at his job. Jose, you have NOTHING to be proud of or to gloat over. The way this has been handled by you is very dirty in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The truth of the matter is that anybody skilled enough, be it in packs or cards, can get alterations past even the best of authenticators, especially given that they aren't operating crime labs but making low-tech judgments for short money. If Steve Hart catches most bad packs, then that is probably the most one can realistically hope for.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

I also read the same thing, that Jose still has the fake ( fraudulent ) packs. Good for him if he still has the packs, it does not sit well with me that he has made someone, Steve Hart, out to apparently be bad at their job. That is PSA's decision to make, as Steve's employer. Steve may, in fact, be very good at his job. Jose, you have NOTHING to be proud of or to gloat over. The way this has been handled by you is very dirty in my opinion.

Lou,
at some time last year Steve and i exchange several emails on the matter
and at the end i did offer to discuss it face to face so i could show him
his mistakes, but he elected not to and that was the last communication,
i have been a star pack dealer/collector since december 1969 which is
even before he was born,,,,,you would think i know what i'm talking about!

[CW]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Did Jose admit or was it ever proven that he sold the fake packs? In one of his recent posts, he claims all of the fake packs he graded are still in his possession.

I don't know what he has admitted or not admitted, but I did read this post from this thread. Judging from previous statements, and the fact that he was creating fake packs in the first place, I am not sure if I can trust either Jose's statements or his sanity at this point. I guess I can edit my post to say "allegedly" selling fake packs.

Originally Posted by pepis

Matty
i sold many graded packs to people (customers) in fact i sold you
a couple of them and when you found out about the FBI investigation
you acted like a scared boy and dump them to someone else, instead
of confronting me and PSA on the matter, as far as you know you sold bad packs to other people.

[martindl]

Interesting read.

Somewhere along the line it's alleged that the person grading the bogus packs was also selling packs that he himself graded. Is there hard proof of that?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by CW

I don't know what he has admitted or not admitted, but I did read this post from this thread. Judging from previous statements, and the fact that he was creating fake packs in the first place, I am not sure if I can trust either Jose's statements or his sanity at this point. I guess I can edit my post to say "allegedly" selling fake packs.

Yeah, this thread will never win any awards for coherency, and the second quote to Matty could be interpreted a number of ways, but if Jose did cooperate with the FBI, as he claims in Post #161, there doesn't seems to be any findings of wrongdoing on his part, but only the FBI allegedly admitting that clearly bad packs were graded and there was no crime in that.

[Gmrson]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Yeah, this thread will never win any awards for coherency, and the second quote to Matty could be interpreted a number of ways, but if Jose did cooperate with the FBI, as he claims in Post #161, there doesn't seems to be any findings of wrongdoing on his part, but only the FBI allegedly admitting that clearly bad packs were graded and there was no crime in that.

So I guess yet another question is did the FBI destroy the packs? Did Jose contact the FBI or someone else? I'm not sure how much the FBI wants people creating fake items to only say "I'm conducting my own investigation". I bet they hear that one alot.

All I know is I would never trust someone trying to create bogus items for any reasong. Why not just approach PSA if they see bad items and offer information to why they think it's fraudulent. That seems more an asset to this hobby than spending time creating fake items.

[Wite3]

Jose is starting to sound more and more like Peter Nash...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Gmrson

So I guess yet another question is did the FBI destroy the packs? Did Jose contact the FBI or someone else? I'm not sure how much the FBI wants people creating fake items to only say "I'm conducting my own investigation". I bet they hear that one alot.

All I know is I would never trust someone trying to create bogus items for any reasong. Why not just approach PSA if they see bad items and offer information to why they think it's fraudulent. That seems more an asset to this hobby than spending time creating fake items.

I have no idea what has happened to the fake packs.

I think one major detail that Jose took issue with is that there there was a long thread on the CU Board that exposed the problem in December 2010. The issue then was that a 1973 Topps Cello pack had a 1974 or 1975 Topps wrapper. See Post #42 on this thread.

In typical fashion when grading problems surface, CU/PSA deleted the thread but I was able to recover it with the Google Cache feature, but now I see those links don't work anymore. See Post #91 on this thread. I'm now curious to know exactly how those Google Cache links were deleted? Did PSA contact Google? I believe Jose's point of doing all of this was to see if they fixed the problem during that two year period and it appears they didn't.

I also just noticed in this thread that at least one bad graded pack was supposedly listed on Ebay two years later in December 2012 (a month before this thread started). But the auction listing did mention the pack was bad. See Post #49 on this thread. It doesn't say exactly who the seller is, but I'm guessing it was Jose.

As I've been saying for years, someone needs to grade the graders, otherwise how else will we know how competent they are?