Babe Ruth?

[jgmp123]

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

Why the hell should they pull it, James? Because Chris said to? The same Chris who told us he left the consignor his phone number, while the consignor has told us twice he did not?

Either Chris is lying, or the consignor is. Guess who I believe?

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

Josh,

Okay if you disagree then please answer...

What does Leon have to do with my statement?

What do you owe the hobby?

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Josh,

Okay if you disagree then please answer...

What does Leon have to do with my statement?

What do you owe the hobby?

Leon runs an auction house. Do you feel he owes nothing to the hobby? Bill Huggins has been in this hobby since 1976. I have been with him since 1985. Is it a business? Yes. It is also a hobby? Yes. To dismiss our integrity by saying "we owe nothing to the hobby" is a presumptuous statement about who we are as people. We have always done the right thing, in the best interest of the hobby. If there is a problem, we address it in an open and honest manner.
For this particular case, I don't think we have done anything wrong. I guess I don't understand how "you feel for someone who is going to purchase a piece from us." I promise you, anyone who is going to spend the kind of money that this piece is going to sell for, has their own opinions and beliefs about the validity of the piece. They trust the authenticators and their opinions and therefore they are going to spend their money on a piece they like. What business that is of yours, I'm not quite sure. Additionally, all I've received from anyone in this thread is opinion. I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good. We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator for a second time, and they still think it's good. For our auction, those are two of the third party authenticators that we use and offer our items for sale with. The people who bid on those items trust those peoples opinions and bid accordingly.
To be very honest, I have never sold any piece with a Chris Williams LOA (nor have I ever seen one). I also have never been asked by a single bidder of ours if we could get a Chris Williams LOA for one of our pieces, so we don't use him as an authenticator. Conversely, we have been asked more times than I can count for authentication from JSA, SGC or PSA, so those are the ones we use.
I'm sorry for the long winded response, but James, your assumptions about our integrity really got under my skin.
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions

[jgmp123]

Josh,

See that is where you are mistaken, I never once mentioned anything about your "integrity". To say you own nothing to the hobby, is not a question of your "integrity".

What gets under my skin is this statement on your website....

At Huggins & Scott, we take great pride in only offering "IRONCLAD", "LEAD PIPE", "NO QUESTIONS ASKED" autographs.

and this one....

AFTER 30 DAYS, THERE ARE NO REFUNDS, EXCHANGES OR CREDITS! ALSO, THE ENTIRE LOT MUST BE INTACT AND IN THE SAME FORM AS WHEN IT WAS SOLD IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ANY CREDIT OR REFUND CONSIDERATIONS - NO EXCEPTIONS!!

What if the exception was that PSA/DNA said an item was bad?

[slidekellyslide]

James, what proof do you have that this autograph and ticket are forgeries? None. JSA has looked at it twice. JSA (whether anyone agrees or disagrees with them) is the standard in the hobby. And to me it very much sounded like you questioned their integrity and I'm not surprised that Josh took offense to it.

[cubsfan-budman]

I don't see what the issue is at this point.

Travis made a fool of Chris Williams and the rest of the doubters.

Both the consignor and Huggins & Scott have gone above and beyond to answer questions and work to address any authenticity concerns, including getting second opinions and speaking directly with Chris Williams.

I'd love to see definitive evidence that the signature is bad, but it seems clear that none is forthcoming.

It seems to me that Chris Williams and is the one that feels that he owes nothing to the hobby, as he apparently feels that protecting the buyer from this "forgery" is not something he's willing to do.

H&S has done plenty in this case.

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Josh,

See that is where you are mistaken, I never once mentioned anything about your "integrity". To say you own nothing to the hobby, is not a question of your "integrity".

What gets under my skin is this statement on your website....

At Huggins & Scott, we take great pride in only offering "IRONCLAD", "LEAD PIPE", "NO QUESTIONS ASKED" autographs.

and this one....

AFTER 30 DAYS, THERE ARE NO REFUNDS, EXCHANGES OR CREDITS! ALSO, THE ENTIRE LOT MUST BE INTACT AND IN THE SAME FORM AS WHEN IT WAS SOLD IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ANY CREDIT OR REFUND CONSIDERATIONS - NO EXCEPTIONS!!

What if the exception was that PSA/DNA said an item was bad?

that rarely happens, and when it does, we deal with those on a case by case basis with the winning bidder and the TPA's to get an amicable resolution for all. I am going to stop now.
Josh

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

...I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good.

What professionalism on Chris' part! LOL!

From the very beginning--the start of this thread ten days ago--Chris has had absolutely nothing. Asked countless times to put his money where his mouth is... again, and again, nothing.

Because there is nothing. (Nothing, that is, but Chris' bluster.)

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good. We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator for a second time, and they still think it's good. For our auction, those are two of the third party authenticators that we use and offer our items for sale with. The people who bid on those items trust those peoples opinions and bid accordingly.
To be very honest, I have never sold any piece with a Chris Williams LOA (nor have I ever seen one). I also have never been asked by a single bidder of ours if we could get a Chris Williams LOA for one of our pieces, so we don't use him as an authenticator. Conversely, we have been asked more times than I can count for authentication from JSA, SGC or PSA, so those are the ones we use.
I'm sorry for the long winded response, but James, your assumptions about our integrity really got under my skin.
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions

So he won't tell you why it's bad either? He also avoided your questions about PSA rejecting it as well? Nothing to see here folks...the emperor has no clothes.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

H&S has always been stand-up and has provided as much or more evidence of feeling they owe something to the hobby, as any auction house around.

I won't put words in the OP's mouth, but I have a hard time believing he really meant that statement "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby"

[jgmp123]

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

I guess I shouldn't care that much, but as seen in other cases JSA/PSA/SGC sometimes they get it wrong.

My point to Huggins and Scott and the "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby" quote is referenced below:

8. You will pay us a commission of 15%-20% (higher dollar items may be negotiated lower)
of the successful bid price for each item or lot sold, depending on which auction your
memorabilia is sold in. You will also be responsible for any related expenses, such as grading
fees, autograph authentication, game used authentication, etc., unless otherwise agreed upon, in
writing.

You are an auction house (Business) and owe nothing to the hobby.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

I guess I shouldn't care that much, but as seen in other cases JSA/PSA/SGC sometimes they get it wrong.

My point to Huggins and Scott and the "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby" quote is referenced below:

8. You will pay us a commission of 15%-20% (higher dollar items may be negotiated lower)
of the successful bid price for each item or lot sold, depending on which auction your
memorabilia is sold in. You will also be responsible for any related expenses, such as grading
fees, autograph authentication, game used authentication, etc., unless otherwise agreed upon, in
writing.

You are an auction house (Business) and owe nothing to the hobby.

Do you think, say, Richard sells autographs for less than he paid for them? He's a business, too, so, according to your (absurd) blanket statement neither Richard, nor Jim, nor... "owe anything to the hobby."

[rscheck]

[QUOTE=jgmp123;1115528].My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

Your concern? Your concern? My concern is that I have put up a ticket for sale that I have had in my possession for over twenty years and based for some unknown reason I see I don't like it cause the corners are to crisp or there's a forger in Michigan that does work like this. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? let me state some facts.
1) I have owned this ticket for over 20 years. I DEFY you to send me a photo of it on some other auction sight.
2) This ticket was never graded, looked at or appraised by psa in person (they could have gotten sent a photo). Anything body claiming anything else is not telling the truth
3) Heritage offered to auction this item for me. I have an email from Ron dated 1/7/13 three days after I contacted him and sent him photos of the stub. They at no time had this ticket in their possession.
4) I went with H&S because after speaking with both Ron and Josh on the phone I felt much better about using H&S.
5) The ticket has been certified twice and the auto certified twice.
6) I have been totally forthright in answering EVERY question even going so far as to allow my phone number to be given to the guy that started this thread. BTW STILL waiting to hear from him
7) no one has offered ANY proof that the ticket and auto aren't what H&S and I state they are

[slidekellyslide]

[QUOTE=rscheck;1115665]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

Your concern? Your concern? My concern is that I have put up a ticket for sale that I have had in my possession for over twenty years and based for some unknown reason I see I don't like it cause the corners are to crisp or there's a forger in Michigan that does work like this. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? let me state some facts.
1) I have owned this ticket for over 20 years. I DEFY you to send me a photo of it on some other auction sight.
2) This ticket was never graded, looked at or appraised by psa in person (they could have gotten sent a photo). Anything body claiming anything else is not telling the truth
3) Heritage offered to auction this item for me. I have an email from Ron dated 1/7/13 three days after I contacted him and sent him photos of the stub. They at no time had this ticket in their possession.
4) I went with H&S because after speaking with both Ron and Josh on the phone I felt much better about using H&S.
5) The ticket has been certified twice and the auto certified twice.
6) I have been totally forthright in answering EVERY question even going so far as to allow my phone number to be given to the guy that started this thread. BTW STILL waiting to hear from him
7) no one has offered ANY proof that the ticket and auto aren't what H&S and I state they are

And the shameful part is that it might go for less money than it could have because of this thread...a thread I might add that was started by someone who won't call you, won't give H&S the reasons he believes it to be bad...looks nothing like the autograph that he states comes from the "Michigan Forger" and like Elvis has left the building.

[Big Dave]

Apparently Chris has tucked his tail between his legs and went into hiding on this one. What a clusterf*** he made out of this, and as for credibility, he has lost a lot recently with his posts.

[CW]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

And the shameful part is that it might go for less money than it could have because of this thread...

I was giving this some thought as I was reading the thread, and it's entirely possible that this thread may actually help the final price (especially now considering how this thread has unfolded). It has definitely gotten some exposure, and the authenticity of the piece, while called into question, has only been solidified by the evidence presented here.

It will be interesting to see where this ends up.

[Frozen in Time]

[QUOTE=rscheck;1115665]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

Your concern? Your concern? My concern is that I have put up a ticket for sale that I have had in my possession for over twenty years and based for some unknown reason I see I don't like it cause the corners are to crisp or there's a forger in Michigan that does work like this. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? let me state some facts.
1) I have owned this ticket for over 20 years. I DEFY you to send me a photo of it on some other auction sight.
2) This ticket was never graded, looked at or appraised by psa in person (they could have gotten sent a photo). Anything body claiming anything else is not telling the truth
3) Heritage offered to auction this item for me. I have an email from Ron dated 1/7/13 three days after I contacted him and sent him photos of the stub. They at no time had this ticket in their possession.
4) I went with H&S because after speaking with both Ron and Josh on the phone I felt much better about using H&S.
5) The ticket has been certified twice and the auto certified twice.
6) I have been totally forthright in answering EVERY question even going so far as to allow my phone number to be given to the guy that started this thread. BTW STILL waiting to hear from him
7) no one has offered ANY proof that the ticket and auto aren't what H&S and I state they are

+1,000