Getting sick of the more obvious frauds

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

John you know damn well my ceiling would have been higher if I felt you honestly were ready to move on it. We can always revisit it.

Glenn this has nothing to do with me or my lack of motivation. As a buyer it’s on you to motivate me to sell an item that I truly don’t need to sell let alone sell at a loss. I made it clear in the PM on the “do you have a price in mind” comment from you “not cheap” I said…your offer to that comment less than what I publicly paid 2 years ago.

You know the value of these cards; you know what they go for certainly enough to lecture me about fads and price points. Heck you even point out to that I would do better at auction and get more while the back craze is in full swing for this card vs. selling to you today, good advice after you didn’t score the card cheap. I loved that part.

Even more insulting that now you want to play big dog and claim you would have gone way higher and it was me that was holding you back from making a “real” offer. Really I made you lowball me? I have to stop doing that to myself.

This is exactly my point for every unreasonable seller they’re just as many unreasonable buyers. Because I didn’t jump at your offer I’m an unreasonable seller who just doesn’t get it and was wasting your time with items that you have deemed not for sale because they didn’t get sold to you at your offer price.

Cheers,

John

[cubsfan-budman]

That's too funny. It looks to me like Shoele$$ just wanted to buy the card low and then flip it on an AH to take advantage of the "fad" and make some profit...which sounds a LOT like what he's criticizing others for doing. Priceless!

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

That's too funny. It looks to me like Shoele$$ just wanted to buy the card low and then flip it on an AH to take advantage of the "fad" and make some profit...which sounds a LOT like what he's criticizing others for doing. Priceless!

Yeah I was looking to pay close to $6,000 for a card that was paid $4,000 for and then look to "flip it" for a huge profit immediately. Would you pay me or him $10,000 for it??? That's what I thought, the answer is almost always gonna be no. And if it's too hard for you to follow in this thread, I'm a collector, not a shady seller.

[glchen]

Personally, I don't know why this back and forth between John and Glenn is getting so much "press." I've had the same conversations at least 50 times both as buyer and seller that pretty much just look the same as that one. It's no big deal. Move on, nothing to see here. As the buyer, you think the reasonable price should be lower. The seller thinks it should be higher. Both have valid reasons. Deals fall apart all of the time. Who cares? Doesn't have to get personal.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by glchen

Personally, I don't know why this back and forth between John and Glenn is getting so much "press." I've had the same conversations at least 50 times both as buyer and seller that pretty much just look the same as that one. It's no big deal. Move on, nothing to see here. As the buyer, you think the reasonable price should be lower. The seller thinks it should be higher. Both have valid reasons. Deals fall apart all of the time. Who cares? Doesn't have to get personal.

Gary, agree 100%

The reason this was brought up is that Glenn was making claims that sellers waste folks time by having things listed for sale that aren’t in his eyes really for sale.

I simply brought this up to Glenn that perhaps why things aren’t sometimes for sale is the price being offered isn’t in line. Case in point his PM to me…now Glenn has turned this to it was my fault he offered low and all of this falls back on the seller he contacted out of the blue. Nothing is on Glenn and I was somehow playing games yet then again he contacted me hmmm how did I do this again?

I really don’t care either way just thought it was funny Glenn on his soapbox talking about fair dealings and real offers and not wasting folks time and having this in my PM box just the other day.

Cheers,

John

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by glchen

Personally, I don't know why this back and forth between John and Glenn is getting so much "press." I've had the same conversations at least 50 times both as buyer and seller that pretty much just look the same as that one. It's no big deal. Move on, nothing to see here. As the buyer, you think the reasonable price should be lower. The seller thinks it should be higher. Both have valid reasons. Deals fall apart all of the time. Who cares? Doesn't have to get personal.

Don't worry Gary, John knows exactly what the case was and his overall attitude about selling, don't let it fool you. I guess everything would have been all good had I been the dumb ass to offer to pay John $8-10K for his card right?

I guess I'll say everybody is thinking because I just don't give a $hit, basically what happened was I ask John if he wants to sell, he says "well I really don't have to sell"......"but if I do, IT'S NOT GONNA BE CHEAP".....translation turned out to be "sure if you're dumb enough to make me an offer for 2-3 times what I paid, I'll sell it".....well yeah! Of course! If everybody was a sucker and always paid 2-3 times for everything I owned, I'd be a sell everything I had too! Is it clear enough now?

[Matthew H]

Glenn, for what it's worth, I think 5500 might be kinda low for today's market on that particular card. I join the ranks of people that think it's crazy to collect tobacco ads and I don't collect T206... But after reading your exchange, I wonder why you'd offer 5500 for a Tris Speaker T206 if you weren't into the back "fad".

I kinda wish this topic would have stayed on track. We were discussing a newer kind of fraud in which sellers lie, using scan doctoring and false descriptions, to try to sucker someone into buying their card at their price. Yes, obviously any one can ask anything for what they own, buy they need to do it truthfully. People who get suckered this way are most likely newbies, who will most likely not remain in the hobby very long after they realize how scumy some sellers are. That is bad for a hobby that relies on newcomers for prices to remain stable as oldtimers sell off their collections.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

But after reading your exchange, I wonder why you'd offer 5500 for a Tris Speaker T206 if you weren't into the back "fad"

So then you do feel that offer was fairly decent considering it seemed high to you for the back? If offers because I'm a huge Tris collector as well, the back was just an added bump due to overall rarity. But it wasn't an invitation to try to give it to me in the a$$ with no lube. That's my whole point in the first place. If I really wanted to low ball I wouldn't have offered almost $6,000. Common sense should start kicking in to some people as 6-65 is about what it would pull in even at an AH.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Don't worry Gary, John knows exactly what the case was and his overall attitude about selling, don't let it fool you. I guess everything would have been all good had I been the dumb ass to offer to pay John $8-10K for his card right?

I guess I'll say everybody is thinking because I just don't give a $hit, basically what happened was I ask John if he wants to sell, he says "well I really don't have to sell"......"but if I do, IT'S NOT GONNA BE CHEAP".....translation turned out to be "sure if you're dumb enough to make me an offer for 2-3 times what I paid, I'll sell it".....well yeah! Of course! If everybody was a sucker and always paid 2-3 times for everything I owned, I'd be a sell everything I had too! Is it clear enough now?

yeah, its totally too bad that someone else made the money that you wanted to make. where's the justice!?!?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

yeah, its totally too bad that someone else made the money that you wanted to make. where's the justice!?!?

Who made what money?? What are you even talking about? You just like reading your own cool guy posts don't you? You're like the little kid that jumps in screaming "YEAH!!!" for no reason. Go back to whatever hole you crawled out from.....please.

[wonkaticket]

Glenn not sure why I’m the bad guy here or why all of your hostility?

I’ve been offered way above what you offered for the card in question. I don’t need to sell because guess what….exactly that I don’t need to sell. The card is in my personal collection and I’m in no need to unload the item. Should I decide to sell this card why would I sell to you at less than what I paid for it or for that matter a slight perceived profit via your eyes. Last I checked hobby prices aren’t set by you.

I was very nice on your request and I was clear I would sell this card but need a serious offer. You failed to give a serious offer and I wasted none of your time or mine on back forth banter I said thanks but no thanks. It was you who continued the lecture and conversation as if to imply you had it figured all out and I’m just some dumb schmuck with some cards.

This has nothing to do with markets, trends/fads, you being a super successful business man, the rise and fall of T206’s, stock markets or unreasonable sellers.

You offered a number and a low one at that and I said no thanks very nicely for the record…that’s it.

Perhaps you can think about that next time you think the seller is the unreasonable one as coins do tend to have two sides that’s all I was saying.

John

P.S. Nobody was trying to take advantage of you. You made an offer and I rejected that offer. I never even gave you a counter offer or number so how is that attempting to take advantage of you?

[drmondobueno]

Keith here. When I began expanding my (non) existent collection last year I became acutely aware of my inability to do a decent job of seeing true card quality. I quickly became aware of the ebay habit of misrepresentation through poor photo quality, omitting backs, poor lighting, tilted photos, and scans that mislead. In fact, I found I am terrible with a scanner when attempting to get true representations of my cards I wanted to post to the SGC Registry. Besides blurring (I use a lower end HP) I found creases had a tendency to disappear. My lack of confidence and unwillingness to mislead has actually stopped me from selling cards, for both the reason of possibly misleading someone and also limiting the potential sale price of a particular card. As to my ability to properly price a card, well..unh.. that's the rub, I guess.

Another thought. Last year I made an offer on a BIN, and after several back and forths, we came within fifty bucks on a 1600 card. The last time I looked the card as listed at the same BIN, has to be over 7 months now. Seems to me the seller could have turned over the money and reinvested in another piece of profitable merchandise. Guess this was my first taste of a seller with a different level of motivation than myself, or quite possibly a better undersanding of the card's value.

As for misleading and fraudulent sellers, scans of graded cards are just that; scans of graded cards. Any verbiage from the seller is just words. But what do I know, it can be scary buying a higher end t201 or t206. These particular examples leading into this thread are out of my league, so I sit, watch, listen, think. Keep it coming, guys, much appreciated.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Yeah I was looking to pay close to $6,000 for a card that was paid $4,000 for and then look to "flip it" for a huge profit. Would you pay me or him $10,000 for it??? That's what I thought.

I wouldnt pay 10000 dollars for a baseball card ever, I dont think.

But he was up front with you, said he paid 4700 (not 4000) and you offer 4500...and he bought it before the "fad" hit.

Obviously he thinks its worth considerably more than the price he bought it for. I think you do too. You wanted to flip it for profit, didn't you?

That's what I thought.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

I wouldnt pay 10000 dollars for a baseball card ever, I dont think.

But he was up front with you, said he paid 4700 (not 4000) and you offer 4500...and he bought it before the "fad" hit.

Obviously he thinks its worth considerably more than the price he bought it for. I think you do too. You wanted to flip it for profit, didn't you?

That's what I thought.

How did you jump to THAT conclusion?
It wasn't from the "that's how smart buyers lose money in the future, just like in the stock market" statement in the PM, was it?

[bbsports]

Since most collectors & dealers have made their comments already, I just want to be brief here. I've been a dealer for over 30 years. The object here is to try to get a bargain on what you purchase, which is not easy. You make money by buying, not selling. Selling is easy if you buy right. Yes, a buyer can ask what they want for any card, just don't buy the card. Some dealers get involved with auction houses. By the time they pay the juice, they have given their profit to the auction house. When they try to resell the card, they asking the moon for the card & there stuck with the card. There only alternative is to send the card back to another auction house. If you think this is bad now, wait till after 5/1 when e-bay makes their changes. Most cards will be sold as BIN & the asking prices will be much higher than they are now.

[glchen]

It doesn't matter what John paid for it. I've bought plenty of cards only to find out later that I overpaid for it, and have a hard time going down and losing money on the card in order to get to "market price." However, John doesn't believe that is the case with this card in regards to correct market value, and probably thinks Glenn is lowballing him. As I said this happens all of the time. No big deal. Move on. And personally, I also think that paying $$$$ for rare back T206 commons is absolutely nuts. However, there are like 10,000 avid T206 collectors that vehemently disagree with me, so I think I am in the minuscule minority along w/ Glenn. People have their own opinions on the true worth of these cards. That's how it is. It's like on the CU board, people are raving on how 1977 PSA 9 Ozzie Smith cards are hitting record prices. I get a headache reading those threads. But to each, his own.

Anyway, Glenn, as John said, no worries. It's not "playing games." This is just normal negotiations. Nothing to sweat over.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Glenn this has nothing to do with me or my lack of motivation. As a buyer it’s on you to motivate me to sell an item that I truly don’t need to sell let alone sell at a loss. I made it clear in the PM on the “do you have a price in mind” comment from you “not cheap” I said…your offer to that comment less than what I publicly paid 2 years ago.

You know the value of these cards; you know what they go for certainly enough to lecture me about fads and price points. Heck you even point out to that I would do better at auction and get more while the back craze is in full swing for this card vs. selling to you today, good advice after you didn’t score the card cheap. I loved that part.

Even more insulting that now you want to play big dog and claim you would have gone way higher and it was me that was holding you back from making a “real” offer. Really I made you lowball me? I have to stop doing that to myself.

This is exactly my point for every unreasonable seller they’re just as many unreasonable buyers. Because I didn’t jump at your offer I’m an unreasonable seller who just doesn’t get it and was wasting your time with items that you have deemed not for sale because they didn’t get sold to you at your offer price.

Cheers,

John

P.S. So everyone can see what an unreasonable seller I was being...

And you think by telling me you don't "have to sell" or "it won't be cheap" didnt dictate my offer and responses?? Again....I don't play the seller games.