Help Needed regarding bad Babe Ruth auto

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by travrosty

It's very unfortunate that these companies act this way and more unfortunate that there are people, industry execs and hobbyists, collectors who condone it, look the other way or defend it.

They owe you an explanation, you are the customer. But they have a monopoly on their services right now so there is no outside pressure for them to change the way they do business. It's either thing 1 or thing 2. West coast authenticators doesnt speak to customers over the phone because their authentication skills would be found out to be lacking if they had to explain themselves. They want to keep everyone in the dark so they can keep doing it their way, which benefits them and not the customer in my very humble opinion.

A true, genuine, customer service oriented authentication company would gladly tell you how they came to their conclusions and openly discuss why they believe an autograph is genuine or not genuine. Why should they have anything to hide?

I would gladly discuss autographs with anyone if I worked there but that's why no one with a backbone works for any of these companies. They treat the customer like an inconvenience, and it's too bad. If enough hobby people complained I think we could get a chance, but it doesn't seem like it is going to happen, because there is too much money to be made defending the status quo and once people find their backbone and stand up, they get the equivalent of a blackball from the autograph hobby and called all sorts of names including helper of the forgers.

I continually speak out against such horrible practices and get labelled a troublemaker with an agenda. my agenda being I want to see the customer get better service not to mention competant service but that doesn't keep the lights on and keep them in mocha frappuccinos so i get called an instigator instead. Let's clean up the hobby and fire these people who don't think they owe the customers any explanations by not hiring them in the first place. Joe, Steve, James, you don't owe anyone any explanations, really?

As someone fairly new to the industry, in no way am I up to speed with all of the issues and backstories with the TPA's.

But for some reason, many seem to be very reluctant to speak openly about the TPA's...and very quick to jump to their defense. Obviously, there must be some motivation behind it (although I'm not experienced enough to know what the motivation actually is).

In dealing with PSA, they refused give me an opinion either way. I'm sure they had an opinion, but for some reason, refused to give it. I have used them numerous times (both before and after the Blarney Stone auto)...and an opinion has always been given.

When I attempted to contact PSA to ascertain why they wouldn't give an opinion, I was told that authenticators don't speak regarding such issues. Not great customer service...but I do understand the reason for such a policy. And since they issue refunds when they are "unable to render"...not much I can really complain about.

In regards to JSA...I understand that they are one of the big boys, are very well respected, and good at what they do.

With that said, I (not an expert by any means) am convinced that the Blarney Stone Ruth is bad....and according to previous posts, many experts in this forum believe that it's bad as well.

When I called JSA to speak about the auto, the customer service was terrible. The authenticator was defensive, rude, and combative. I was shocked when I was told that he didn't own me or anyone else any kind of explanation regarding the auto. I'm assuming since they only have one competitor in the industry...customer service isn't high on their priority list.

Then, when Tri-Star offered me the replacement auto (an auto they informed me was also certed by JSA), I turned to the experts at Net54 for some help. Needless to say, the replacement auto was unanimously destroyed in this forum.

As a consumer, I don't understand how these highly suspicious autos (certed by one of the big two TPA's) end up being chase cards for these big companies.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Westsiders

The authenticator was defensive, rude, and combative. I was shocked when I was told that he didn't own me or anyone else any kind of explanation regarding the auto. I'm assuming since they only have one competitor in the industry...customer service isn't high on their priority list.

Please explain to me why you are surprised by this.

[travrosty]

But for some reason, many seem to be very reluctant to speak openly about the TPA's...and very quick to jump to their defense. Obviously, there must be some motivation behind it (although I'm not experienced enough to know what the motivation actually is).



two reasons, one rhymes with bunny. lots of greasy palms around that aren't looking to dry up anytime soon by the truth spreading around. That would be like a chicken voting for colonel sanders.

the other is being scared for fear of being blackballed by the hobby.

[travrosty]

you will see in your lifetime tpa companies who won't act like this (treating the customer like a piece of dirt) and will actually talk to you, explain their authentications and be open, honest and transparent. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen because the open transparent system of doing authentication is better than the "go away" type of authentication. The problem is that the current authentication systems in place has a strangehold on the hobby - two companies that act and authenticate exactly the same. wink and nod.

when change occurs, it will occur fast and the old guard will have to adapt and change their ways or die out. Then you will get customer service. We have to stop thinking of mr. west coat and mr. east coast as some type of gods who are untouchable and start asking questions of them and to them. If they are who they say they are, then they are good enough at what they do to handle the tough questions.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

you will see in your lifetime tpa companies who won't act like this (treating the customer like a piece of dirt) and will actually talk to you, explain their authentications and be open, honest and transparent. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen because the open transparent system of doing authentication is better than the "go away" type of authentication. The problem is that the current authentication systems in place has a strangehold on the hobby - two companies that act and authenticate exactly the same. wink and nod.

when change occurs, it will occur fast and the old guard will have to adapt and change their ways or die out. Then you will get customer service. We have to stop thinking of mr. west coat and mr. east coast as some type of gods who are untouchable and start asking questions of them and to them. If they are who they say they are, then they are good enough at what they do to handle the tough questions.

I love this optimism, I really do. I just don't share it. I don't see it happening, because a model that is focused on the things you constantly (and rightfully) call for is not a profitable one. It just isn't.

Are you going to start said authentication company? If so, more power to you. If not (which is more likely), think about all of the myriad reasons why not. There are a lot of very good reasons not to go into this business, and there are a lot of reasons why the TPAs don't do the things you ask them to do.

Do you have any info about someone credible starting this type of TPA "in your lifetime"? Wishful thinking doesn't count.

Again, I love the optimism coming from you on this post.

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by travrosty

[I]two reasons, one rhymes with bunny. lots of greasy palms around that aren't looking to dry up anytime soon by the truth spreading around. That would be like a chicken voting for colonel sanders.

the other is being scared for fear of being blackballed by the hobby.

Hey Travis...really appreciate your willingness to speak openly and give your opinions without fear of repercussions. It seems that it has made you quite a polarizing figure in these chat rooms. Saw you taking some serious heat in another link...must be quite a backstory.

And I get what you're saying...as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.

And I do have a question (as I'm still trying to learn the business...and the intricacies of Net 54). A few weeks back, I posted a few details of this story and asked for some help. In one of the replies, you mentioned that my post seemed like a set up. The only reason that I bring it up is that I'm still trying to figure out what kind of set ups can/do take place in a forum such as this. Obviously they do happen (or you wouldn't have brought it up)...just can't figure out the purpose of the set up.

Thanks.

[travrosty]

as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.




that's not true, there are good ways to sell it without authentication from the big two. there are alternatives. me and my friends sell boxing autographs worth hundreds and even thousands of dollars with no psa or jsa certs. i have helped sell 3 autographs of alejandro lavorante worth about 2400 apiece, and not one had psa or jsa or any certification. no grad or spence as they dont know the man;s signature anyway. will get back to that in a bit. maybe i will even start a separate thread on it.


as for the post i made, i dont remember it specifically, but many times people post autographs here and it is a setup, so its not always easy to figure out which ones are the setups and which ones arent. sometimes it is the comments of other people that lead me to believe that it is a setup. so sorry if i thought it was and it wasn't.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by travrosty

[I]

that's not true, there are good ways to sell it without authentication from the big two. there are alternatives. me and my friends sell boxing autographs worth hundreds and even thousands of dollars with no psa or jsa certs. i have helped sell 3 autographs of alejandro lavorante worth about 2400 apiece, and not one had psa or jsa or any certification. no grad or spence as they dont know the man;s signature anyway. will get back to that in a bit. maybe i will even start a separate thread on it.

this point always bug me. sure there are ways to sell it w/o authentication, if your name is stinson or simon or keating etc where your rep is good and you have connections with a database of buying clients...or you where your name is known in the boxing circle.

the little guys need spence or psa/dna to level the field a bit. it doesn't matter if the seller knows the sig is good, it's whether the potential buyer believe it is...and the reality is JSA and PSA/DNA have done a good enough job to earn the consumer's trust.

[jgmp123]

You give the buyer what they want. 9 times out of 10, when you sell an autograph on a site like eBay the first question asked is "does it come with a cert"...if I am a seller and I want to actually "sell" the item, then I have to put the things in place that the seller wants to bid on my item. If that means I get it certified, then that's what you do.

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

the little guys need spence or psa/dna to level the field a bit. it doesn't matter if the seller knows the sig is good, it's whether the potential buyer believe it is...and the reality is JSA and PSA/DNA have done a good enough job to earn the consumer's trust.

I completely agree with both points...the little guy (like me) needs a cert from one of the big two to sell an auto...and that JSA and PSA must have done a good enough job to earn the industry's trust.

And without question, even the best of the best make mistakes. But some of these mistakes (including this one with the "Blarney Stone" Ruth) makes me wonder how a company so well versed and experienced in Ruth autos, could make a mistake on this poorly executed forgery. Is it simply a case of them having so many Ruth's run through their system that some inevitably fall through the cracks?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

this point always bug me. sure there are ways to sell it w/o authentication, if your name is stinson or simon or keating etc where your rep is good and you have connections with a database of buying clients...or you where your name is known in the boxing circle.

the little guys need spence or psa/dna to level the field a bit. it doesn't matter if the seller knows the sig is good, it's whether the potential buyer believe it is...and the reality is JSA and PSA/DNA have done a good enough job to earn the consumer's trust.

I respectfully disagree. I buy autographed letters and I don't need either PSA or JSA. I buy from reputable sellers and I do my homework - that's really all there is to it. If you don't have confidence enough in your own knowledge to buy autographs without LOA's, then you really shouldn't buy them (yet) - the answer is not throwing that responsibility on PSA and JSA.

As far as earning the consumer's trust - PSA has not earned mine. It's not just about their mistakes - it's more about their arrogance.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

as it stands now, if I'm looking to resell a high end auto, I need it to be certed by JSA or PSA. And despite their lack of customer service, there doesn't appear to be any other alternative.




that's not true, there are good ways to sell it without authentication from the big two. there are alternatives. me and my friends sell boxing autographs worth hundreds and even thousands of dollars with no psa or jsa certs. i have helped sell 3 autographs of alejandro lavorante worth about 2400 apiece, and not one had psa or jsa or any certification. no grad or spence as they dont know the man;s signature anyway.

it is true in baseball, no doubt about it.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Westsiders

Hey Travis...really appreciate your willingness to speak openly and give your opinions without fear of repercussions. It seems that it has made you quite a polarizing figure in these chat rooms. Saw you taking some serious heat in another link...must be quite a backstory.

What repercussions would people be afraid of, exactly? I hear this (mostly from
Travis) and I don't get it.

I can tell you that some of us simply don't take this all that seriously (you know, as a hobby), so we kinda look at the TPAs and their incompetence as a minor inconvenience and a reality of the current state of the hobby. That attitude has made Travis accuse us of being part of some vast conspiracy, and that rubs many of us the wrong way.

If he focused only on the errors of these companies, he would be a hero around here. Instead he throws wicked and often baseless accusations around, both at the TPAs and fellow members, so he does end up polarizing.

The whole thing adds up to great entertainment in the end. Stick around, you'll see.