The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set

[Wite3]

Honest Long Cut, Drum, Broadleaf, and Polar Bear all read: Baseball Series Assorted Designs...to me that reads that in the baseball series there are assorted designs (ie national league, american league, minor league designs). I have a feeling if they were talking about different sets they would have led with Assorted Designs Baseball Series.

Cycle, Hassan, American Beauty, Sweet Caporal, Piedmont, and Hindu all read:
Baseball Series 400 Designs. Again...sounds to me like there are 400 baseball designs...otherwise they would have led with 400 designs baseball series.

It is all semantics...and let us not forget that the set designations were completely arbitrary and created nearly 40 years after these sets were produced. Although looking at the other sets produced by the ATC that list the series and number of cards on the back at the time like the birds, fish, military, leaders, etc. nearly all of them if I recall correctly listed the amount of cards or series on the back and were fairly accurate with the number. I do not recall different assorted series being linked across the subjects. Maybe the non-sports guys could comment on this.

Joshua

[Ease]

T58 1st series & T205 side by side for comparison. There were 2 series of T58s IIRC, 1-50 and 50-100.

[marcdelpercio]

I collect a lot of the non-sports sets and I am not aware of any ATC sets that link different series of unrelated subjects into one set. There are a (very) few from this era like the T227s that have assorted athletes beyond just baseball players, but I can't think of any ATC release that combines and self-identifies athletes and non-athlete cards into a single set.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by marcdelpercio

I collect a lot of the non-sports sets and I am not aware of any ATC sets that link different series of unrelated subjects into one set. There are a (very) few from this era like the T227s that have assorted athletes beyond just baseball players, but I can't think of any ATC release that combines and self-identifies athletes and non-athlete cards into a single set.

I just find it hard to believe there are zero test sheets, notes, drawings, discussions, documentation, or anything confirming there was to be 400 players. Yet they went on to print another entire T207 set. So I guess it is possible the Military and bird series were part of the 400 series if the T227's had it and really who knows what other sets were created together but because some guys categorized them they were broken up. We can only speculate but the numbers of those sets together add up better than they didn't just print them IMO.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I just find it hard to believe there are zero test sheets, notes, drawings, discussions, documentation, or anything confirming there was to be 400 players. Yet they went on to print another entire T207 set. So I guess it is possible the Military and bird series were part of the 400 series if the T227's had it and really who knows what other sets were created together but because some guys categorized them they were broken up. We can only speculate but the numbers of those sets together add up better than they didn't just print them IMO.

For why they might stop T205s and change to T207s it might be good to look at what was happening with other things from an aesthetic viewpoint. The teens were a time when the arts and crafts movement was strong with some emphasis on less ornate design. While I really like them, T205s T80 etc have always struck me as a throwback to the more ornate stuff of the 1800's. Art Nouveau might have covered T205s, and the others, but the designs don't flow like good art nouveau.
So perhaps they were a bit unpopular either as old fashioned or if art nouvaux, just not all that good.
They were also probably expensive to produce. The silver border T220s may have been a set cut short for the same reason, but were finished witout the silver borders.
T207s would have been much cheaper to make. Using maybe half as many colors. And 200 less 8 pose variations plus 200 T207s also comes in right at 400. (And yes, that's a huge stretch given nearly no shared backs between those two sets)

Steve B

[Ease]

Steve, its not that far of a stretch, they have broad leaf and cycle backs in common. Maybe they were transitioning to newer brands, we don't see as many cycle and even less broad leafs in t205 compared to piedmont, sweet cap, etc.

[marcdelpercio]

I've always found the possibility intriguing that the T207 set was meant to be the final series of T205 as the numbers would be very close to matching 400. The thing that always pulls me away from that conclusion though, is the player duplication. There are 80+ subjects, including quite a few players who were scarcely even minor stars, in the T207 set which are also in the T205 set. Some duplication would be expected, especially with the more popular players, as is seen with the different T206 series. But to repeat nearly half the set's players, with only a few of those overlapping players being top stars, seems unlikely to me.

[tedzan]

1911 was a very ambitious year for American Lithographic in terms of Tobacco premiums. For starters they finished off the T206 set. Then started their Gold-Boarded sets.
These T80 Military Men were first. Here are some of my nicer T80's. I wish the T205 cards looked as pretty as these guys.

Followed by the T42 Birds set and of course the T205's. Furthermore, the T201 cards, the T77 Lighthouse series, etc., etc. Can anyone here name some more 1911 sets ?


















Hey guys....imagine opening a UZIT or LENOX cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card.

UZIT pack
. .

. .


LENOX pack


.



TED Z

[marcdelpercio]

I definitely agree that it seems odd that they stopped so far short of 400 subjects, but there are so many inexplicably missing players (Lajoie, Wood, Alexander, Flick, McKechnie, Jackson, Carey, Waddell, Plank, Crawford, Cole, Coombs, just to name a few big ones) as well as examples from other sets where the T205 artwork was used for players NOT in the T205 set:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163810

It is quite plausible that there was another major series intended to be produced that simply never got off the ground for whatever reason. Given what we know from various contemporary writings, there was significant demand for the baseball player cards at that time. So I have to believe that the better option would have been to continue the baseball series with at least some of the aforementioned very popular players rather than change course and put 100 bird cards into the set instead. I mean, I like the Ruffed Grouse as much as the next guy, but I imagine I'd have much rather pulled a Nap Lajoie.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Can anyone here name some more 1911 sets ?

TED Z

There were many non-sport sets being printed and distributed in 1911. Here are a few of them.

T44 Birthday Horoscopes


T56 Emblem Series



T57 Fable Series (First Series)


T69 Historic Homes

[T205 GB]

So maybe I wasn't to far fetched to think the T205's were part of the T206 set. As you said Jim the T42's went from white to gold boarders.

Either way no one has proof to disclaim my theory or theirs. So no one really can really say for sure.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

So maybe I wasn't to far fetched to think the T205's were part of the T206 set. As you said Jim the T42's went from white to gold boarders.

Either way no one has proof to disclaim my theory or theirs. So no one really can really say for sure.

IMO no way the 205's and T206 are part of the same set, T206 just way too ugly!

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

IMO no way the 205's and T206 are part of the same set, T206 just way too ugly!

+1

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

IMO no way the 205's and T206 are part of the same set, T206 just way too ugly!

-1

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

There were many non-sport sets being printed and distributed in 1911. Here are a few of them.

T44 Birthday Horoscopes


T56 Emblem Series



T57 Fable Series (First Series)


T69 Historic Homes

Thanks Tim

Some colorful cards....especially the T69 Historic Homes.


TED Z

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks Tim

Some colorful cards....especially the T69 Historic Homes.


TED Z

+1 - beautiful cards

Great thread, Ted.

[tedzan]

Hey Scott

Thanks

There's a lot of "gold" (cards) out there in 'dem hills


TED Z

[EvilKing00]

althought this will never happen, but it would be amazing, if there was a new find of the uncirculated cards that never made it into the cigarette packs, ie, "the millsing 192" or whatever. ahhhh the dreams of a T205 collector.