Top 30 Pre-WWII Players

[Sean]

I don't mean this as criticism, but since you included Negro Leaguers, how could you leave off Oscar Charleston?

[mannybb24]

Originally Posted by Sean

I don't mean this as criticism, but since you included Negro Leaguers, how could you leave off Oscar Charleston?

I guess that's the one glaring error bbcard1 was talking about.

[Eric72]

P - Walter Johnson
C - Josh Gibson
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Frank Baker
LF - Joe Jackson
CF - Ty Cobb
RF - Babe Ruth

[jerrys]

Quotes by Ruth's fellow ball players:

"Sometimes I still can't believe what I saw," said Harry Hooper, a Boston teammate of Ruth's. "This 19-year-old kid, crude, poorly educated, only lightly brushed by the social veneer we call civilization, gradually transformed into the idol of American youth and the symbol of baseball the world over - a man loved by more people and with an intensity of feeling that perhaps has never been equaled before or since."

"Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star." ...Tris Speaker on Babe Ruth's future, 1921.

"He hits the ball harder and further than any man I ever saw." ...Bill Dickey, teammate

[yanksfan09]

Eric, that's a pretty good starting 9. I'd have to think a while if I wanted to change any. My list would be very similar.

I see no 19th century guys... I admit though, that I don't know enough about the top 19th century players. I think it's very hard to compare them even to the early 20th century guys since the game and the way everything was setup was so different. It's also so hard to know what to do with Negro League guys on lists. There's incomplete stats and irregular seasons and everything was much more disorganized in general. It's a shame we'll never really know exactly how each of the top players stacked up. I feel the same way about today's players who were known or highly suspected steroids guys. A guy like Barry Bonds, it's hard to know just where to rank him, if he hadn't done anything. I believe he started in 1999 from what stories say, so if that's true we can see his career arch and his accomplishments up to that point and speculate. But, in the end, it's just that a lot of speculation. I guess that makes for fun debates though.

Don't mean to get into a debate on roids guys, just have some random thoughts.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

Eric, that's a pretty good starting 9. I'd have to think a while if I wanted to change any. My list would be very similar.

I see no 19th century guys...

Erick,

Thanks for the kind words. My original list was comprised entirely of MLB players, and I had Mike Kelly as my catcher.

When I expanded the list to include Josh Gibson, I also placed Oscar Charleston in center. Figuring that the board would roast me for not including a certain Detroit Tiger, I quickly decided against this.

Anyway, since this thread has been conspicuously void of eye candy so far, I figured it would be nice to include a picture of the three players mentioned here.



Best Regards,

Eric

[deadballfreaK]

My original list left off all but a couple of 19th century guys and included no Negro Leaguers. This will PO the OJ guys, but baseball before 1894 had different rules and was haphazard. All kinds of leagues etc. 5 balls, 4 strikes, foul balls didn't count, pitching boxes, pitchers who were able to pitch ever game because they lobbed it. I just can't judge it. As for Negro Leaguers I'm not a bigot, just the same thing. No real stats to go by. From what I've read I am quite sure many black players would be in the top 30. Josh Gibson not only might be the best catcher of all time, but be up there with Ruth and Cobb. Satchel Paige yes. I don't know much about Oscar Charleston. Maybe he would be at the top also. I'm a stat guy, but I may try revising my list to include some others just on reputation.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

My original list left off all but a couple of 19th century guys and included no Negro Leaguers. This will PO the OJ guys, but baseball before 1894 had different rules and was haphazard. All kinds of leagues etc. 5 balls, 4 strikes, foul balls didn't count, pitching boxes, pitchers who were able to pitch ever game because they lobbed it. I just can't judge it. As for Negro Leaguers I'm not a bigot, just the same thing. No real stats to go by. From what I've read I am quite sure many black players would be in the top 30. Josh Gibson not only might be the best catcher of all time, but be up there with Ruth and Cobb. Satchel Paige yes. I don't know much about Oscar Charleston. Maybe he would be at the top also. I'm a stat guy, but I may try revising my list to include some others just on reputation.

I don't think this floats and that you can exclude 19th century players and Negro Leaguers. They were just as good as anyone else. Sure, the game has evolved, but there were good and bad (and great) players back then, just as there are today. You can't penalize a guy just for being born in a certain time period or for having a certain skin color. That's why you see 19th century players and Negro Leaguers in the HOF, because they deserve the recognition just as much as anybody else. Same thing goes with a Top 30 list, it should be the 30 greatest players, period, not just some select group that a self-proclaimed "stat guy" believes to be legitimate. And there are many other stat guys who would completely disagree with your assessment, anyways.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

I don't know much about Oscar Charleston. Maybe he would be at the top also. I'm a stat guy, but I may try revising my list to include some others just on reputation.

Please check out Bill James' All-Time rankings and then dig a bit deeper. I was a whisker away from excluding Ty Cobb from my All-Time Starting Nine because of how incredibly amazing Charleston was.

I am still compliling a list of the other 21 players for this "team." I take discussions on this topic very seriously...just ask Paul S. As such, I tend to only provide my opinion when it has been very carefully considered. When last discussing an, "all-time" team, modern players were in play, and Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams were part of the discussion. As per the parameters of this thread, it would appear as though that is not the case.

As such, I have been forced to rethink my choices.

Having said that, I offer an expanded version of my original post. My batting order, for which I am almost certain other opinions will surface, is presented here. Additionally, a few of the "reserves" I have chosen are listed. Please note that my focus lately has been on the pitchers.

1. CF - Ty Cobb
2. SS - Honus Wagner
3. 2B - Rogers Hornsby
4. LF - Joe Jackson
5. 1B - Lou Gehrig
6. C - Josh Gibson
7. RF - Babe Ruth
8. 3B - Frank Baker
9. P - Walter Johnson

P - Christy Mathewson
P - Joe Wood
P - Rube Waddell
P - Satchel Paige
P - Cy Young
P -
P -
P -
P -
C - Mike Kelly
1B - Jimmie Foxx
2B - Napoleon Lajoie
SS -
3B - Harold Traynor
OF - Oscar Charleston
OF -
OF -
27 -
28 -
29 -
30 -
Manager - John McGraw