Top 30 Pre-WWII Players

[yanksfan09]

Eric, that's a pretty good starting 9. I'd have to think a while if I wanted to change any. My list would be very similar.

I see no 19th century guys... I admit though, that I don't know enough about the top 19th century players. I think it's very hard to compare them even to the early 20th century guys since the game and the way everything was setup was so different. It's also so hard to know what to do with Negro League guys on lists. There's incomplete stats and irregular seasons and everything was much more disorganized in general. It's a shame we'll never really know exactly how each of the top players stacked up. I feel the same way about today's players who were known or highly suspected steroids guys. A guy like Barry Bonds, it's hard to know just where to rank him, if he hadn't done anything. I believe he started in 1999 from what stories say, so if that's true we can see his career arch and his accomplishments up to that point and speculate. But, in the end, it's just that a lot of speculation. I guess that makes for fun debates though.

Don't mean to get into a debate on roids guys, just have some random thoughts.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

Eric, that's a pretty good starting 9. I'd have to think a while if I wanted to change any. My list would be very similar.

I see no 19th century guys...

Erick,

Thanks for the kind words. My original list was comprised entirely of MLB players, and I had Mike Kelly as my catcher.

When I expanded the list to include Josh Gibson, I also placed Oscar Charleston in center. Figuring that the board would roast me for not including a certain Detroit Tiger, I quickly decided against this.

Anyway, since this thread has been conspicuously void of eye candy so far, I figured it would be nice to include a picture of the three players mentioned here.



Best Regards,

Eric

[deadballfreaK]

My original list left off all but a couple of 19th century guys and included no Negro Leaguers. This will PO the OJ guys, but baseball before 1894 had different rules and was haphazard. All kinds of leagues etc. 5 balls, 4 strikes, foul balls didn't count, pitching boxes, pitchers who were able to pitch ever game because they lobbed it. I just can't judge it. As for Negro Leaguers I'm not a bigot, just the same thing. No real stats to go by. From what I've read I am quite sure many black players would be in the top 30. Josh Gibson not only might be the best catcher of all time, but be up there with Ruth and Cobb. Satchel Paige yes. I don't know much about Oscar Charleston. Maybe he would be at the top also. I'm a stat guy, but I may try revising my list to include some others just on reputation.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

My original list left off all but a couple of 19th century guys and included no Negro Leaguers. This will PO the OJ guys, but baseball before 1894 had different rules and was haphazard. All kinds of leagues etc. 5 balls, 4 strikes, foul balls didn't count, pitching boxes, pitchers who were able to pitch ever game because they lobbed it. I just can't judge it. As for Negro Leaguers I'm not a bigot, just the same thing. No real stats to go by. From what I've read I am quite sure many black players would be in the top 30. Josh Gibson not only might be the best catcher of all time, but be up there with Ruth and Cobb. Satchel Paige yes. I don't know much about Oscar Charleston. Maybe he would be at the top also. I'm a stat guy, but I may try revising my list to include some others just on reputation.

I don't think this floats and that you can exclude 19th century players and Negro Leaguers. They were just as good as anyone else. Sure, the game has evolved, but there were good and bad (and great) players back then, just as there are today. You can't penalize a guy just for being born in a certain time period or for having a certain skin color. That's why you see 19th century players and Negro Leaguers in the HOF, because they deserve the recognition just as much as anybody else. Same thing goes with a Top 30 list, it should be the 30 greatest players, period, not just some select group that a self-proclaimed "stat guy" believes to be legitimate. And there are many other stat guys who would completely disagree with your assessment, anyways.

[kcohen]

Ruth - Unprecedented and unparalleled combination of average and power. As a pitcher, eighth best winning percentage in MLB history among pitchers with 1000 innings or more.

As to any possible Yankee Stadium factor, in the three years prior to its construction, Ruth hit 148 dingers when the Yanks played half of their games in the Polo Grounds. The baseball historian narrating the tape at the Babe Ruth Museum in Baltimore, claims that had playing fields been as small as they were in Ruth's day, he would have hit 900.

Ruth #1 - End of discussion.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Ruth - Unprecedented and unparalleled combination of average and power. As a pitcher, eighth best winning percentage in MLB history among pitchers with 1000 innings or more.

As to any possible Yankee Stadium factor, in the three years prior to its construction, Ruth hit 148 dingers when the Yanks played half of their games in the Polo Grounds. The baseball historian narrating the tape at the Babe Ruth Museum in Baltimore, claims that had playing fields been as small as they were in Ruth's day, he would have hit 900.

Ruth #1 - End of discussion.

There was a book where it says that Ruth under today's rules and ballparks would have hit 104 HRs in 1921.

Here it is: http://www.amazon.com/Year-Babe-Ruth.../dp/0786719060

Best there ever was. Maybe the best there ever will be.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

There was a book where it says that Ruth under today's rules and ballparks would have hit 104 HRs in his 60 HR season.

Here it is: http://www.amazon.com/Year-Babe-Ruth.../dp/0786719060

Best there ever was. Maybe the best there ever will be.

I think it was his 1921 season...

Good book. Jenkinson did lots of research and included charts and other detailed data along with an outstanding narrative. I assumed everybody here would have a copy of that one.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

I don't know much about Oscar Charleston. Maybe he would be at the top also. I'm a stat guy, but I may try revising my list to include some others just on reputation.

Please check out Bill James' All-Time rankings and then dig a bit deeper. I was a whisker away from excluding Ty Cobb from my All-Time Starting Nine because of how incredibly amazing Charleston was.

I am still compliling a list of the other 21 players for this "team." I take discussions on this topic very seriously...just ask Paul S. As such, I tend to only provide my opinion when it has been very carefully considered. When last discussing an, "all-time" team, modern players were in play, and Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams were part of the discussion. As per the parameters of this thread, it would appear as though that is not the case.

As such, I have been forced to rethink my choices.

Having said that, I offer an expanded version of my original post. My batting order, for which I am almost certain other opinions will surface, is presented here. Additionally, a few of the "reserves" I have chosen are listed. Please note that my focus lately has been on the pitchers.

1. CF - Ty Cobb
2. SS - Honus Wagner
3. 2B - Rogers Hornsby
4. LF - Joe Jackson
5. 1B - Lou Gehrig
6. C - Josh Gibson
7. RF - Babe Ruth
8. 3B - Frank Baker
9. P - Walter Johnson

P - Christy Mathewson
P - Joe Wood
P - Rube Waddell
P - Satchel Paige
P - Cy Young
P -
P -
P -
P -
C - Mike Kelly
1B - Jimmie Foxx
2B - Napoleon Lajoie
SS -
3B - Harold Traynor
OF - Oscar Charleston
OF -
OF -
27 -
28 -
29 -
30 -
Manager - John McGraw

[Jlighter]

A quick sidebar.

Just imagine how good the 1932 Crawfords were with three of these players.

Charleston, Gibson and Paige.

Would have loved to see them play.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

A quick sidebar.

Just imagine how good the 1932 Crawfords were with three of these players.

Charleston, Gibson and Paige.

Would have loved to see them play.

Jake,

I completely agree...tremendous ballplayers, all three of them. They're in my top 30.

Best,

Eric

[cyseymour]

Well, if you take King Kelly, you've pretty much got to take Buck Ewing because he was even better than Kelly. Those two guys were legends, it's important to remember that 19th Cent. baseball had a very different dynamic, and the defensive responsibilities of the catcher were huge, meaning Kelly and Ewing were considered the two best players of their time. So I think they could both be included on the list.

I also don't see how you take Smokey Joe Wood over Kid Nichols. Nichols posted a miniscule ERA considering the 1890's were an insanely offensive era, and he pitched three times as many innings as Joe Wood.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Well, if you take King Kelly, you've pretty much got to take Buck Ewing because he was even better than Kelly. Those two guys were legends, it's important to remember that 19th Cent. baseball had a very different dynamic, and the defensive responsibilities of the catcher were huge, meaning Kelly and Ewing were considered the two best players of their time. So I think they could both be included on the list.

I also don't see how you take Smokey Joe Wood over Kid Nichols. Nichols posted a miniscule ERA considering the 1890's were an insanely offensive era, and he pitched three times as many innings as Joe Wood.

Cy,

Buck Ewing is still on my radar...so is Kid Nichols. And my All-Time Pitching Staff has yet to be finalized. As for "Smokey" Joe Wood, he was one helluva hard throwing pitcher in his day...or any day, for that matter. Some of his contemporaries considered him the fastest hurler in the game. Whether Nichols makes the cut or not, I would still definitely "draft" Wood for my team.

And if we're truly considering the 19th Century players in terms of their prowess, with respect for the rules in place at the time, I might consider Ross Barnes, for his excellence at the art of fair-foul hitting...and I am not kidding. What a great hitter he would be, coming off the bench.

Respectfully,

Eric

[Eric72]

1. CF - Ty Cobb
2. SS - Honus Wagner
3. 2B - Rogers Hornsby
4. LF - Joe Jackson
5. 1B - Lou Gehrig
6. C - Josh Gibson
7. RF - Babe Ruth
8. 3B - Frank Baker
9. P - Walter Johnson

P - Christy Mathewson
P - Addie Joss
P - Joe Wood
P - Rube Waddell
P - Satchel Paige
P - Cy Young
P - Kid Nichols
P - Lefty Grove
P - “Pete” Alexander
C - Mike Kelly
1B - Jimmie Foxx
2B - Napoleon Lajoie
SS - “Pop” Lloyd
3B - Harold Traynor
OF - Oscar Charleston
OF - “Cool Papa Bell”
OF - Tris Speaker
27 - Buck Ewing
28 - Ross Barnes
29 - Eddie Collins
30 - “Turkey” Stearnes
Manager - John McGraw

[cyseymour]

Eric,

I mean, guys like Ross Barnes and Joe Wood, they've got nice numbers, but they didn't play very long. Just six years. Neither of them are in the HOF. It is nice of you to think of them, but neither belongs on a Top 30 list.