Let the bidding frenzy begin......

[ctownboy]

Clayton,

In the situation you described, if you found the card and they didn't and you have no interest in the card then you shouldn't say anything. If so think so many people are interested and all of them missed it then that is their fault.

I mean, if you were to out it by private messaging people, how would you decide who you PM'd first? Because whoever was PM'd earlier would have an advantage. If other people found out you were PM'ing people about this card, don't you think they would be upset if you sent the message to another person before them?

The only two solutions I see as possible with your scenario are these:

1) Do nothing. If you found this card, have no interest in it and the other board members didn't find it then that is their bad luck.

2) If you have the means, buy the card yourself and then either relist it on eBay in the proper category with the proper description and tell other board members about it in the proper B/S/T area or send it to an auction house which deals in sports items. That way everyone who is interested has a chance at the card.

Number two might seem crass but YOU did the work and found the card and YOU would be reaping the benefits.

This past Summer, I missed out on a T206 card with a brown Hindu back. The cost was all of $5 dollars. The sad thing is, I KNEW about this card for a couple of years.

This person had a yard sale about three years ago and I asked if they had any sports stuff. This guy said his Dad had collected some cards and he took me into his garage. There I found a literal stack of boxes and albums of cards. Most of the stuff was newer shiny crap but he had, by some way, found some older cards too.

In one box on top of the stack were the older cards he had found. There were three T206's in that box. The one with a brown Hindu back (a common), another common with a Piedmont back and then a common with a large chunk out of it. I asked if any of these cards were for sale and he said yes but he would have to do some investigation and get back to me (since his Dad had recently died). I gave him my name and number and left. I never heard back from him.

Flash forward to last Summer. My Mom tells me that her neighborhood is having a community sale and she wants me to help her clean her yard up and dig through the attic, closets, basement and garage to find things to sell at the sale she is going to have. I think about the guy with the cards and make a mental note to go see if he is 1) still living in the house, 2) still has the cards and 3) has decided if he is going to sell the cards and for how much. Unfortunately, I got busy (and tired) doing all of the work Mom wanted me to do and didn't have a chance to get to the guy's house before the sale started.

So, after I helped Mom get all of her stuff out the morning of the sale, I drove to the guy's house and yes, he still lived there, yes, he still had the cards and yes, he was selling them. I looked around and found two of the three T206's. I asked about the third and he said he had sold that one earlier in the morning.

So, because of my own mistake, I cost myself the chance to buy a brown Hindu backed T206 for $5 dollars. I had the information and didn't act on it. I didn't act on this info for three years out of respect for the guy's Dad having died and the seller not knowing if he wanted to sell or not. In that time period, collecting the different backs has become more popular and brown Hindu's have gone up in price. I kick myself every time I think about this. But whose fault is it? MINE!!!

I did the work but failed to follow through. Somebody else obviously didn't and they got the benefits of it.

To make this long story short, I think the people who do the work should get the benefits of that work. That, to me, means if YOU dig through the pages of eBay and find something YOU think is undervalued then either YOU should take advantage of that situation or just let it go. If other people don't find it then that is their tough luck. Outing an auction just makes hard feelings for all involved. So, what people don't know wont hurt them and wont cause a stink on this board.

David

[Jlighter]

Ctownboy- your comparisons are not really apt. Your comparing a small town sale that only a few people would be at leisure to access, to a widely and heavily used public website.

[Leon]

The one thing I hope members take away from this thread, is the fact that there really can't be a rule about outing, other than it's against the rules to out your own auction, or conspire with someone to do it for one of theirs. At this stage in our forum I think (I could be wrong) most of our rules, or instances of no-rules, are sound. That being said the best way to stay current is to always entertain other ideas. There has to be a better mousetrap!! (well, maybe)

[cubsfan-budman]

In a practical sense, I only see positives from outing an auction, as long as its adhering to Leon's rules (i.e. don't out your own auctions):

1. The seller got the price that they deserved
2. The buyer got a card they wanted (that they may not have known about)
3. Other bidders didn't get the card, but they also didn't spend $10.6k

So, its "wins" all around in my opinion

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

...So, its "wins" all around in my opinion

I dunno, ask the guy that paid 10.6k if he would have preferred it be outed or not.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by Leon

I dunno, ask the guy that paid 10.6k if he would have preferred it be outed or not.

Indeed. Maybe he didn't know about it until it got outed?

Also, it's been mentioned in another thread and seemed to get pretty unanimous support: don't bid more than you're willing to spend.

Pretty good rule of thumb.

Finally, why is the buyer more important than the seller? Everyone is concentrating on what a great deal COULD have been had on this card. Isn't the seller entitled to getting what the card is worth?

Again, assuming the buyer didn't go into debt or something to buy the card, everyone got an equitable deal here.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

Indeed. Maybe he didn't know about it until it got outed?

Also, it's been mentioned in another thread and seemed to get pretty unanimous support: don't bid more than you're willing to spend.

Pretty good rule of thumb.

Finally, why is the buyer more important than the seller? Everyone is concentrating on what a great deal COULD have been had on this card. Isn't the seller entitled to getting what the card is worth?

Again, assuming the buyer didn't go into debt or something to buy the card, everyone got an equitable deal here.

Hey, there is a reason there is no rule. I am just saying, if I were the buyer I would prefer not to have thousands of unnecessary collectors looking at what I am bidding on and talking about it. It probably did work out better for the seller. Of course the seller is entitled to every penny he can get....but it is his/her responsibility to get the most for it, not ours. I will reiterate, these are all reasons there is no rule. Happy collecting....

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks for the reply David.

I totally understand where you are coming from, and agree on some points. In your scenario though, you knew about the cards for a couple of years. In my scenario, the 24 hour auction is already underway.

I get the points about someone doing a lot of combing through ebay (you say this is the hard work) and finding a possible steal-and then someone else outs the auction, and you are now competing with many instead of a few- but,even if you are only competeing with a few, you still may get blown out of the water by one of those few having deep pockets-thus, your hard work doesn't give you any reward, only frustration. There's no guarantee either way that you will win the card.

As far as PM'ing board members- I'm sure this happens all of the time. I may not have an interest in a card, for whatever means- but, may PM another member who I think may want it- is this wrong? You are saying I should just buy the card, and offer it to him myself?

I think where you lose me is when you say if the person doesn't do the work, for any reason, they should not have a shot at the card. I say this because (keep in mind, 24 hour auction) somepeople work 8,10,12 hours a day-then, they come home and deal with wife and kids, etc- maybe don't have the time to scour pages of ebay etc. But, they work hard in life and would love to spend their hard earned money on this card in the 24 hour auction. I think that person should have as much of a chance to buy the card as the person sitting on ebay all day with the time to scour the pages....after all, ebay is open to everyone nationwide.

In another post, you kind of described two types of people, one who didn't have the time to search, and one who is lazy. Of course no one wants the lazy person to win but unfortunately ebay auctions don't work that way-it's all about who is willing to spend the most money-period.

No one in life wants to feel that the reward of all of their hard work will be reaped by someone else. But I guess to me when looking at cards/hobby I don't equate it with a grueling 10 hour day at work (I know some people here who sell will disagree with that statement ) - meaning, a hobby should be fun, not some cut throat "I found it first, F everyone else, too bad for them they didn't find it, it's ALL MIIINNNEEE" type of thing.

Anyhow- I've never outed an auction. But, truth be known, I don't really care. I've just found this to be an interesting thread where it comes down to ethics and morals, and seeing where people agree and disagree.

Thanks again for the reply-

Sincerely, Clayton

[ullmandds]

I think where you lose me is when you say if the person doesn't do the work, for any reson, they should not have a shot at the card. I say this because (keep in mind, 24 hour auction) somepeople work 8,10,12 hours a day-then, they come home and deal with wife and kids, etc- maybe don't have the time to scour pages of ebay etc. But, they work hard in life and would love to spend their hard earned money on this card in the 24 hour auction. I think that person should have as much of a chance to buy the card as the person sitting on ebay all day with the time to scour the pages....after all, ebay is open to everyone nationwide.

This argument makes no sense to me at all?!?! If someone works 10-12-whatever hours/day and then has to tend to their wife and/or kids...this is the life they have chosen. If one chooses to go to the gym for 4 hours after working every day and as a result doesn't take the time to scour ebay for deals on vintage bb cards...why the hell should they reap the rewards of someone who puts in the time? Makes absolutely no sense!

pete

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I think where you lose me is when you say if the person doesn't do the work, for any reson, they should not have a shot at the card. I say this because (keep in mind, 24 hour auction) somepeople work 8,10,12 hours a day-then, they come home and deal with wife and kids, etc- maybe don't have the time to scour pages of ebay etc. But, they work hard in life and would love to spend their hard earned money on this card in the 24 hour auction. I think that person should have as much of a chance to buy the card as the person sitting on ebay all day with the time to scour the pages....after all, ebay is open to everyone nationwide.

This argument makes no sense to me at all?!?! If someone works 10-12-whatever hours/day and then has to tend to their wife and/or kids...this is the life they have chosen. If one chooses to go to the gym for 4 hours after working every day and as a result doesn't take the time to scour ebay for deals on vintage bb cards...why the hell should they reap the rewards of someone who puts in the time? Makes absolutely no sense!

pete

Yeah you are right-they deserve NOTHING. To hell with them and the life they "chose".

And, what's "putting in time"? You assume it took hours and hours to find the card. What if the person found the card in 3 seconds of searching?

It's not an argument, by the way- I presented a hypothetical question and got an answer. I responded, no one is arguing.

Sincerely, Clayton

[yanks12025]

Looks like Andrew has a new card he can offer for sale.

[Matt]

A question - for those who are opposed to 'outing,' do you feel the same about 'outing' an eBay listing where the seller is selling a decent looking reprint as an authentic card? If you think that kind of outing is OK, why the difference of position?

[HRBAKER]

That could certainly be construed as an instance of helping out someone who "hadn't done their homework."

Hi Matt!

Anyone know where I can find a nice Heilmann M101-6?

[ullmandds]

if a seller is trying to deceive a buyer in selling a fake as authentic...I have no problem with it being outed...who wants a reprint???

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

if a seller is trying to deceive a buyer in selling a fake as authentic...I have no problem with it being outed...who wants a reprint???

Agreed. The board has always been great at exposing fraud. To me there is a big difference in outing fraud and outing a misidentified but authentic item. There are certainly good arguments on both sides of this debate. And I hope no one construes my preference as anything more than one collectors preference. I remember several years ago when I had spotted one of those notebooks on ebay, that has the E95/E96 type players on the cover. It was going somewhat unnoticed and I was hopeful. It then got outed on the board and went for something like 5k. Forget all of the reasons for and against outing, as a collector I was bummed. I didn't win it as I didn't have 5k to spend on it.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Leon

Agreed. The board has always been great at exposing fraud. To me there is a big difference in outing fraud and outing a misidentified but authentic item. There are certainly good arguments on both sides of this debate. And I hope no one construes my preference as anything more than one collectors preference. I remember several years ago when I had spotted one of those notebooks on ebay, that has the E95/E96 type players on the cover. It was going somewhat unnoticed and I was hopeful. It then got outed on the board and went for something like 5k. Forget all of the reasons for and against outing, as a collector I was bummed. I didn't win it as I didn't have 5k to spend on it.

I understand that feeling Leon, I've had that same feeling losing a card in the last couple of seconds on a regular ebay auction that wasn't outed (as far as I knew) anywhere.

The funny thing about this subject is that I bet the same people who are against the outing of an auction (from a buyers standpoint) would have a totally different stance if the topic was about a card that they were selling I bet we wouldn't hear a peep out of them

Sincerely, Clayton

[Matt]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

That could certainly be construed as an instance of helping out someone who "hadn't done their homework."

Hi Matt!

Anyone know where I can find a nice Heilmann M101-6?

Hey Jeff - I'm glad someone caught the point of my post.

Hmmm.... M101-6 HOFers? Haven't seen any of 'em...

[timn1]

...if (as I'm sure was the case here) the outing party was not personally connected to the auction.

Sure, things slip through on ebay, and this might have done, given the vagueness of the listing.

But I think it's unrealistic and even absurd to complain that (quoting Jeff B from way back in the thread) outing defeats "an ebayer [who] through their own work has uncovered something listed either poorly, erroneously or incorrectly so that it may be able to be obtained at a significantly lower price"

In the first place, the person doing the outing has obviously done the homework of uncovering the item. But rather than selfishly keeping it to himself and trying to win it for a steal, he may be doing the hobby a service in calling other collectors' attention to it.

If an item like this isn't outed, someone might get lucky and steal it, but nobody "deserves" to get that outcome. That's their good fortune, but it's hardly a right that can be violated by outing. I would argue instead that it's more important to the health of the hobby that sellers of valuable items should rely on being able to get reasonable market value for them, and they should not have to endure a conspiracy of silence among collectors seeking to prevent that outcome for selfish reasons.

I also think it's absurd to claim that the selling price of an item that is outed will somehow sprout wings and fly to the moon BEYOND ITS ACTUAL MARKET VALUE. Sure, it will go higher than if it weren't outed, but why would it go beyond its legitimate market value?

This is, after all, a public board about vintage BB cards. It seems to me that any publicly available information (i.e. an auction listed on ebay) about that topic is totally legitimate, especially if it's likely to be of interest to a significant number of people (whether they compete for it or not).

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by timn1

...if (as I'm sure was the case here) the outing party was not personally connected to the auction.

Sure, things slip through on ebay, and this might have done, given the vagueness of the listing.

But I think it's unrealistic and even absurd to complain that (quoting Jeff B from way back in the thread) outing defeats "an ebayer [who] through their own work has uncovered something listed either poorly, erroneously or incorrectly so that it may be able to be obtained at a significantly lower price"

In the first place, the person doing the outing has obviously done the homework of uncovering the item. But rather than selfishly keeping it to himself and trying to win it for a steal, he may be doing the hobby a service is calling other collectors' attention to it.

If an item like this isn't outed, someone might get lucky and steal it, but nobody "deserves" to get that outcome. That's their good fortune, but it's hardly a right that can be violated by outing. I would argue instead that it's more important to the health of the hobby that sellers of valuable items should rely on being able to get reasonable market value for them, and they should not have to endure a conspiracy of silence among collectors seeking to prevent that outcome for selfish reasons.

I also think it's absurd to claim that the selling price of an item that is outed will somehow sprout wings and fly to the moon BEYOND ITS ACTUAL MARKET VALUE. Sure, it will go higher than if it weren't outed, but why would it go beyond its legitimate market value?

This is, after all, a public board about vintage BB cards. It seems to me that any publicly available information (i.e. an auction listed on ebay) about that topic is totally legitimate, especially if it's likely to be of interest to a significant number of people (whether they compete for it or not).

+1 Great post.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by timn1

...if (as I'm sure was the case here) the outing party was not personally connected to the auction.

Sure, things slip through on ebay, and this might have done, given the vagueness of the listing.

But I think it's unrealistic and even absurd to complain that (quoting Jeff B from way back in the thread) outing defeats "an ebayer [who] through their own work has uncovered something listed either poorly, erroneously or incorrectly so that it may be able to be obtained at a significantly lower price"

In the first place, the person doing the outing has obviously done the homework of uncovering the item. But rather than selfishly keeping it to himself and trying to win it for a steal, he may be doing the hobby a service is calling other collectors' attention to it.

If an item like this isn't outed, someone might get lucky and steal it, but nobody "deserves" to get that outcome. That's their good fortune, but it's hardly a right that can be violated by outing. I would argue instead that it's more important to the health of the hobby that sellers of valuable items should rely on being able to get reasonable market value for them, and they should not have to endure a conspiracy of silence among collectors seeking to prevent that outcome for selfish reasons.

I also think it's absurd to claim that the selling price of an item that is outed will somehow sprout wings and fly to the moon BEYOND ITS ACTUAL MARKET VALUE. Sure, it will go higher than if it weren't outed, but why would it go beyond its legitimate market value?

This is, after all, a public board about vintage BB cards. It seems to me that any publicly available information (i.e. an auction listed on ebay) about that topic is totally legitimate, especially if it's likely to be of interest to a significant number of people (whether they compete for it or not).

I'm sorry Tim, but you are making too much sense. Please stop it. Best,

Kenny