Auction Houses and blind bidding

Originally Posted by Bored5000

But that is just your opinion that it is safer to buy premium cards on eBay. A lot of people view eBay as being far less safe than an auction house because the number of people looking to rip you off or scam you on eBay is seemingly neverending. If I was looking to buy a $20,000 card like the Nolan Ryan card you listed or even a $5,000 card like the Robin Yount example you listed, I wouldn't feel comfortable at all buying off eBay.

I still don't get how it is harder for shills to inflate the price of a card on eBay if someone really wants to do that. Like I said earlier, the only shills you are going to "catch" are either the really stupid or the really lazy.

Eddie, it's not just my opinion, it's a fact.

AHs have blind bidding with NO buyer protection. You can get bid up and you'd have no idea ... you can have an item delivered not as described (or not at all) and you have no recourse. Whereas on ebay you have buyer (and seller) protection.

Of course someone can try and inflate a price on ebay, but at least there are systems there that give you a chance in tracking down what's going on ... with AHs you have none such ability ... you are simply helpless.

It's just easier to shill via AHs than it is on ebay. If you don't mind taking that chance that's your prerogative, but there are countless examples of premium cards taking hits on ebay that were bought via AH. I myself have picked up some items in such a way.

Ultimately it's just common sense, information is power and with AHs you have none of it.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

AHs have blind bidding with NO buyer protection. You can get bid up and you'd have no idea ... you can have an item delivered not as described (or not at all) and you have no recourse. Whereas on ebay you have buyer (and seller) protection.

I am not trying to be argumentative, because it is apparent our basic opinions are very different. But an auction house that doesn't deliver cards people have paid for or consistently misrepresents what people are buying (i.e. shipping reprints depicted as real cards or consistently selling phony items like a Coaches Corner) will either go out of business like Mastro did or get a reputation as a place to avoid.

You keep talking in absolutes that the reason the cards you have cited sold for more at auction houses than eBay is because of shilling at the auction houses. I don't know the right answer -- and no one does -- but it seems just as viable to me that auction house prices are higher because each product is put in front of a greater number of potential buyers and a lot of people just don't want to deal with the scammers and rip off artists that so heavily populate eBay.

[murcerfan]

Then again you might consider that anyone paying a premium for PSA 9 and PSA 10 Topps cards has more money than sense. Bar graphs, sales history diagrams and conspiracy theories aside, you buy a bubble and ...well, sometimes they go poof. Ask the Dutch about tulips. I also think some in the hobby now don't recognize the difference between reputible auction houses and e-bay.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I am not trying to be argumentative, because it is apparent our basic opinions are very different. But an auction house that doesn't deliver cards people have paid for or consistently misrepresents what people are buying (i.e. shipping reprints depicted as real cards or consistently selling phony items like a Coaches Corner) will either go out of business like Mastro did or get a reputation as a place to avoid.

You keep talking in absolutes that the reason the cards you have cited sold for more at auction houses than eBay is because of shilling at the auction houses. I don't know the right answer -- and no one does -- but it seems just as viable to me that auction house prices are higher because each product is put in front of a greater number of potential buyers and a lot of people just don't want to deal with the scammers and rip off artists that so heavily populate eBay.

I would also add that an auction house auction may also get more bids over an eBay auction due to the format. In an auction house auction, the bidders have the ability to outbid each other during extended bidding. Often times, this creates a more competitive atmosphere in which bidders attempt to outbid the next guy to win the card. Nobody wants to be outbid, and extended bidding allows for a wallet measuring contest. On eBay, it ends at a certain time and that's it.

Also, while it may be easier to transparently shill an auction house auction, it's also more risky. In an auction house auction, you cannot retract a bid, and once you bid you must pay (no simply backing out like on eBay, and no bidding an auction up only to retract your bid like on eBay). A winning shill bid in an auction house auction also has to pay BP, so it's more risk in that sense also.

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Eddie, it's not just my opinion, it's a fact.

AHs have blind bidding with NO buyer protection. You can get bid up and you'd have no idea ... you can have an item delivered not as described (or not at all) and you have no recourse. Whereas on ebay you have buyer (and seller) protection.

Of course someone can try and inflate a price on ebay, but at least there are systems there that give you a chance in tracking down what's going on ... with AHs you have none such ability ... you are simply helpless.

It's just easier to shill via AHs than it is on ebay. If you don't mind taking that chance that's your prerogative, but there are countless examples of premium cards taking hits on ebay that were bought via AH. I myself have picked up some items in such a way.

Ultimately it's just common sense, information is power and with AHs you have none of it.

Paul, I run the software for most of the major sports auction companies and I can say that after reading all of your posts that you don't know what you are talking about. None of the companies that use my software can see the max bids therefore they cannot shill or bid up items.

Also, If you think that it is safer to bid on eBay, where you do not know whom you are buying from, than an auction company, then you are not being very truthful. Most of the auction house DO accept returns where and when appropriate.

You cannot compare eBay prices to AH prices as well as well, they operate differently and most of the big bidders will never bid in eBay and place their trust in knowing who they are bidding with at the AH's. not to mention that your example does not take into consideration that the person who is selling the item is no longer bidding on the item so you lose one of the competing bidders that drove the price to the level that it sold at.

Those are the facts.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Paul, I run the software for most of the major sports auction companies and I can say that after reading all of your posts that you don't know what you are talking about. None of the companies that use my software can see the max bids therefore they cannot shill or bid up items.

Also, If you think that it is safer to bid on eBay, where you do not know whom you are buying from, than an auction company, then you are not being very truthful. Most of the auction house DO accept returns where and when appropriate.

You cannot compare eBay prices to AH prices as well as well, they operate differently and most of the big bidders will never bid in eBay and place their trust in knowing who they are bidding with at the AH's. not to mention that your example does not take into consideration that the person who is selling the item is no longer bidding on the item so you lose one of the competing bidders that drove the price to the level that it sold at.

Those are the facts.

Dont let facts get in the way of a good paranoid idea!!

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Paul, I run the software for most of the major sports auction companies and I can say that after reading all of your posts that you don't know what you are talking about. None of the companies that use my software can see the max bids therefore they cannot shill or bid up items.

Also, If you think that it is safer to bid on eBay, where you do not know whom you are buying from, than an auction company, then you are not being very truthful. Most of the auction house DO accept returns where and when appropriate.

You cannot compare eBay prices to AH prices as well as well, they operate differently and most of the big bidders will never bid in eBay and place their trust in knowing who they are bidding with at the AH's. not to mention that your example does not take into consideration that the person who is selling the item is no longer bidding on the item so you lose one of the competing bidders that drove the price to the level that it sold at.

Those are the facts.

I should believe you why?

And I didn't say it was the AHs themselves doing the shilling (though anything is possible) so get your facts straight.

Finally, AHs make their own rules, rules that support their interests first and foremost. On ebay, sellers have to all play by ebay's rules, rules that actually protect people on both sides of the deal. Maybe I can return an item with an AH if its NAD? Maybe?! Are you serious? You pay with check, MO or wire transfer for a reason with AHs ... it's so the buyer has zero leverage if something goes wrong.


CW,

All you need to make an AH account is a credit card. So you can shill as much as you want during a run of auctions, not pay for anything, and the worst that happens is your account is blocked.

Next auction just sign up with a new CC or get your friend to.


The point of transparency is to protect the buyer during the auction, and give everyone useful information after.

I know it strikes a nerve to dare challenge an institution that many have bought into and others have spent ludicrous amounts of money in. But the reality is that many premium cards have been bought from AHs only to take a dive when sold elsewhere ... there are countless examples and I have provided a few. So for those who have dropped serious cash in an AH setting, you've done so in an arena where you may have been shilled and you will never know - that's why there isn't as much confidence in the prices of cards that are acquired this way - and one of the reasons they sell for less when not in the same AH setting.

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

I should believe you why?

http://simpleauctionsite.com/contact.html

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

All you need to make an AH account is a credit card. So you can shill as much as you want during a run of auctions, not pay for anything, and the worst that happens is your account is blocked.

Next auction just sign up with a new CC or get your friend to.

And that differs from eBay how?

Advance apologies for talking about non-vintage cards...

There is a running thread on freedomcardboard about a *ahem* gentleman who is always "winning" low numbered black-bordered parallels of the base Topps sets. He sets snipes and wins whatever cards come up for auction, but never pays for them. As each ID gets NARUed, he creates a new account using a slight variation of his first and last name - he has done this dozens of times. From what I can see, when eBay bans an account they also ban the IP address. All a savvy and nefarious douchebag has to do is use a proxy server and a new first/last name to set up a new account.

edit: I found a post in which he claimed to have set up over 500 different accounts over the years.

Point being, Paul can talk long and hard about the semi-transparency of eBay, but if someone wants to tamper with an auction, there is NOTHING that can be done about it.

[CW]

Paul, I won't deny that shill bidding or "safety bids" do occur at AHs. I also feel that you have every right to state your case and warn others about these happenings within our hobby. I hope you realize, though, that there are factors *other* than shill bidding that allow AHs to realize higher prices on items. I think you might take a little too much heat on this issue because you are so steadfast and stubborn. Ultimately, I think you have good intentions, as I hope others realize.


€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

Originally Posted by CW

Paul, I won't deny that shill bidding or "safety bids" do occur at AHs. I also feel that you have every right to state your case and warn others about these happenings within our hobby. I hope you realize, though, that there are factors *other* than shill bidding that allow AHs to realize higher prices on items. I think you might take a little too much heat on this issue because you are so steadfast and stubborn. Ultimately, I think you have good intentions, as I hope others realize.


€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

Thanks for your thoughtful comments Chuck. I definitely realize that there are many things at play ... with everything really.

I think most people realize that I have good intentions, and that I've given them something important to think about, so that they can better protect themselves knowing better what they're getting involved with.

I've clearly touched on a nerve with the knee-jerk responses some have given ... almost in utter awe that I'd dare question their beloved AHs.

Unfortunately there will always be a few very noisy people who can't seem to handle the idea that they may have been duped, so they lash out at the informer instead of thinking about things ... that's just human nature, they just can't help themselves.

There are also those who are heavily vested in these AHs, so I have no doubt that they'll only change they're way of operating when they are forced to do so, or when it makes financial sense to them.

I'm not surprised by anything that's gone on with any of this, it's just evolution, it takes a long time usually, and it requires people to think and act differently.

[HRBAKER]

Or, they might simply disagree with you.

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Thanks for your thoughtful comments Chuck. I definitely realize that there are many things at play ... with everything really.

I think most people realize that I have good intentions, and that I've given them something important to think about, so that they can better protect themselves knowing better what they're getting involved with.

I've clearly touched on a nerve with the knee-jerk responses some have given ... almost in utter awe that I'd dare question their beloved AHs.

Unfortunately there will always be a few very noisy people who can't seem to handle the idea that they may have been duped, so they lash out at the informer instead of thinking about things ... that's just human nature, they just can't help themselves.

There are also those who are heavily vested in these AHs, so I have no doubt that they'll only change they're way of operating when they are forced to do so, or when it makes financial sense to them.

I'm not surprised by anything that's gone on with any of this, it's just evolution, it takes a long time usually, and it requires people to think and act differently.

Good God. Does the possibility NOT exist that folks really have carefully considered your POV and have made an informed decision to reject it? Or is the only right answer, "you're absolutely right, Paul."? What will it take to get you to STFU about this? We get it already: eBay = sorta good; auction houses = very bad. Full transparency = auction utopia; continued bidder privacy = somebody's gettin' screwed.

The more you continue to beat this poor horse and condescendingly belittle those who dare to hold an opposite opinion/belief, the more you prove that you are nothing more than a contrarian ass who thinks he's smarter than anyone else.

For the record, I have never invested a penny in any auction house. If I had the chops to do so, I would solicit testimonials from people I trust and ask questions of the house I plan to do business with. I believe that's the responsible thing to do, especially given the high dollar cards/lots that typify an AHs inventory. I would feel far more comfortable with that than taking my chances with "semi-transparency" that can only researched after an auction closes. As I said earlier, it is way too easy to register multiple accounts on eBay and screw with the auction process... far easier than I believe it would be with an AH.

There are 2 major issues with AHs:

1. Transparency

2. Leverage

Both need to be addressed and fixed for the good of the hobby.

[OTWCards]

Good luck to all those that challenge Paul's logic. One cannot have a rational conversation with another that thinks that their opinion is fact because they think it true.

Most of us that have been in the hobby for decades must be wrong for not lining up on the side of Paul's "facts" and for even suggesting that Paul's distaste for auction houses clouds his judgement and ability to accept a contrary viewpoint. Anyone that disagrees, therefore, is either an idiot or part of the machine that doesn't want to change the status quo.

I guess all of the notes, public and private sales records, auction databases and personal experiences that I and many others have assembled over the years are now worthless...

Thank you Paul for pointing out that so many of us in the hobby are lemmings just following blindly and throwing our money away. I feel so used...

[HRBAKER]

There are 2 major issues with AHs:

1. Most of them have large bidder lists

2. Most of those bidder lists include people who are willing to pay more than me for the items I want

Jeff

[drc]

Speaking of being priced out, I remember years back when a non-collector friend visiting from out of town was looking through my Barry Halpler auction catalogs and gasping at astoundingly high sell prices. I informed him he was looking at the minimum bids.