Auction Houses and blind bidding

#1 02-10-2013, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Paul, I run the software for most of the major sports auction companies and I can say that after reading all of your posts that you don't know what you are talking about. None of the companies that use my software can see the max bids therefore they cannot shill or bid up items.

Also, If you think that it is safer to bid on eBay, where you do not know whom you are buying from, than an auction company, then you are not being very truthful. Most of the auction house DO accept returns where and when appropriate.

You cannot compare eBay prices to AH prices as well as well, they operate differently and most of the big bidders will never bid in eBay and place their trust in knowing who they are bidding with at the AH's. not to mention that your example does not take into consideration that the person who is selling the item is no longer bidding on the item so you lose one of the competing bidders that drove the price to the level that it sold at.

Those are the facts.

I should believe you why?

And I didn't say it was the AHs themselves doing the shilling (though anything is possible) so get your facts straight.

Finally, AHs make their own rules, rules that support their interests first and foremost. On ebay, sellers have to all play by ebay's rules, rules that actually protect people on both sides of the deal. Maybe I can return an item with an AH if its NAD? Maybe?! Are you serious? You pay with check, MO or wire transfer for a reason with AHs ... it's so the buyer has zero leverage if something goes wrong.

CW,

All you need to make an AH account is a credit card. So you can shill as much as you want during a run of auctions, not pay for anything, and the worst that happens is your account is blocked.

Next auction just sign up with a new CC or get your friend to.

The point of transparency is to protect the buyer during the auction, and give everyone useful information after.

I know it strikes a nerve to dare challenge an institution that many have bought into and others have spent ludicrous amounts of money in. But the reality is that many premium cards have been bought from AHs only to take a dive when sold elsewhere ... there are countless examples and I have provided a few. So for those who have dropped serious cash in an AH setting, you've done so in an arena where you may have been shilled and you will never know - that's why there isn't as much confidence in the prices of cards that are acquired this way - and one of the reasons they sell for less when not in the same AH setting.

TNP777 · #2 02-10-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

I should believe you why?

http://simpleauctionsite.com/contact.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

All you need to make an AH account is a credit card. So you can shill as much as you want during a run of auctions, not pay for anything, and the worst that happens is your account is blocked.

Next auction just sign up with a new CC or get your friend to.

And that differs from eBay how?

Advance apologies for talking about non-vintage cards...

There is a running thread on freedomcardboard about a *ahem* gentleman who is always "winning" low numbered black-bordered parallels of the base Topps sets. He sets snipes and wins whatever cards come up for auction, but never pays for them. As each ID gets NARUed, he creates a new account using a slight variation of his first and last name - he has done this dozens of times. From what I can see, when eBay bans an account they also ban the IP address. All a savvy and nefarious douchebag has to do is use a proxy server and a new first/last name to set up a new account.

edit: I found a post in which he claimed to have set up over 500 different accounts over the years.

Point being, Paul can talk long and hard about the semi-transparency of eBay, but if someone wants to tamper with an auction, there is NOTHING that can be done about it.

CW · #3 02-10-2013, 05:34 PM

Paul, I won't deny that shill bidding or "safety bids" do occur at AHs. I also feel that you have every right to state your case and warn others about these happenings within our hobby. I hope you realize, though, that there are factors *other* than shill bidding that allow AHs to realize higher prices on items. I think you might take a little too much heat on this issue because you are so steadfast and stubborn. Ultimately, I think you have good intentions, as I hope others realize.

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#4 02-10-2013, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CW

Paul, I won't deny that shill bidding or "safety bids" do occur at AHs. I also feel that you have every right to state your case and warn others about these happenings within our hobby. I hope you realize, though, that there are factors *other* than shill bidding that allow AHs to realize higher prices on items. I think you might take a little too much heat on this issue because you are so steadfast and stubborn. Ultimately, I think you have good intentions, as I hope others realize.

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Thanks for your thoughtful comments Chuck. I definitely realize that there are many things at play ... with everything really.

I think most people realize that I have good intentions, and that I've given them something important to think about, so that they can better protect themselves knowing better what they're getting involved with.

I've clearly touched on a nerve with the knee-jerk responses some have given ... almost in utter awe that I'd dare question their beloved AHs.

Unfortunately there will always be a few very noisy people who can't seem to handle the idea that they may have been duped, so they lash out at the informer instead of thinking about things ... that's just human nature, they just can't help themselves.

There are also those who are heavily vested in these AHs, so I have no doubt that they'll only change they're way of operating when they are forced to do so, or when it makes financial sense to them.

I'm not surprised by anything that's gone on with any of this, it's just evolution, it takes a long time usually, and it requires people to think and act differently.

HRBAKER · #5 02-10-2013, 07:24 PM

Or, they might simply disagree with you.

Mrvintage · #6 02-10-2013, 08:12 PM

Or maybe they have a better idea of how an AH runs since they have more experience using them than you do?

OTWCards · #7 02-10-2013, 08:31 PM

When comparing an apple to an orange, I think it prudent to know more than just something about fruits before postulating an end-all assumption and assigning it the term "fact."

No one, myself included, has disagreed that there are issues with AH's just as there are with eBay and any other auction venue. However, anytime someone mentions anything OTHER than that which agrees or confirms Paul's assumption, they are the evil doers, too old school, have a stake in AH's or some other ill-informed descriptor to attempt to discredit the logical and contrary opinion. Or, in most cases, contrary opinions are ignored or mocked with some sort of inflammatory aside to dismiss them.

Matthew H · #8 02-10-2013, 08:35 PM

Paul,

It's not true that all you need is a credit card to register at an AH, some are like that, but not all. When I registered for Lew Lipsets auction I filled out the forms and gave my hobby references. After all that he still called me and asked about me and what I saw in his auction that I liked. After he felt comfortable, he registered me.

That goes leaps and bounds exponentially over anything eBay will ever do. They don't care or have the time to care.

TNP777 · #9 02-10-2013, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Thanks for your thoughtful comments Chuck. I definitely realize that there are many things at play ... with everything really.

I think most people realize that I have good intentions, and that I've given them something important to think about, so that they can better protect themselves knowing better what they're getting involved with.

I've clearly touched on a nerve with the knee-jerk responses some have given ... almost in utter awe that I'd dare question their beloved AHs.

Unfortunately there will always be a few very noisy people who can't seem to handle the idea that they may have been duped, so they lash out at the informer instead of thinking about things ... that's just human nature, they just can't help themselves.

There are also those who are heavily vested in these AHs, so I have no doubt that they'll only change they're way of operating when they are forced to do so, or when it makes financial sense to them.

I'm not surprised by anything that's gone on with any of this, it's just evolution, it takes a long time usually, and it requires people to think and act differently.

Good God. Does the possibility NOT exist that folks really have carefully considered your POV and have made an informed decision to reject it? Or is the only right answer, "you're absolutely right, Paul."? What will it take to get you to STFU about this? We get it already: eBay = sorta good; auction houses = very bad. Full transparency = auction utopia; continued bidder privacy = somebody's gettin' screwed.

The more you continue to beat this poor horse and condescendingly belittle those who dare to hold an opposite opinion/belief, the more you prove that you are nothing more than a contrarian ass who thinks he's smarter than anyone else.

For the record, I have never invested a penny in any auction house. If I had the chops to do so, I would solicit testimonials from people I trust and ask questions of the house I plan to do business with. I believe that's the responsible thing to do, especially given the high dollar cards/lots that typify an AHs inventory. I would feel far more comfortable with that than taking my chances with "semi-transparency" that can only researched after an auction closes. As I said earlier, it is way too easy to register multiple accounts on eBay and screw with the auction process... far easier than I believe it would be with an AH.

nolemmings · #10 02-10-2013, 10:28 PM

Quote:

What will it take to get you to STFU about this?

+1

Mrvintage · #11 02-10-2013, 10:53 PM

Quote:
What will it take to get you to STFU about this?

+2

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