Auction Houses and blind bidding

Originally Posted by familytoad

Gotta disagree here...
eBAY has become much less transparent over time, each initiative they come up with is fuel for more malfeasance.

I agree and this is my whole point. The whole hiding in the shadows bit.

Ebay took a turn for the worse, heading more towards how AHs do things, by making their bidding more anonymous. But at least it's still possible to track activity with a little research. With AHs it's impossible.

Bottom-line is that with AHs you put yourself in a much more vulnerable position, and we've all seen how premium cards go for crazy amounts at an AH only to take a nosedive on ebay.

Is this always the case? Of course not, but you'll almost never see a premium card go for less in an AH than on ebay.

And many people will only sell their premium cards through consignment (onbay or off), so that they can artificially inflate the cards value. The worst scenario is this one, since people get the impression, through VCP, that a card is worth something since all of it's recorded data came from AH sales.

Unfortunately this racket will continue until the law steps in, as when money is involved, some people won't stop until they get caught. Total transparency is the only real weapon against this, albeit far from perfect.

Ultimately, these kind of blind dealings hurt this hobby, and that's what I take issue with.

[honus94566]

Paul, no offense, but can I ask you why your username is "bubblebathgirl"? Just curious.

Also, FWIW, I won an auction on goodwin the other night and my max bid was 1 notch nigher than I won the item for. So, the auction house could have "behind my back" looked at my max bid and bumped the price up to that level, but they did not do that. I agree with what the others have said - the main, larger auction houses in the hobby have a limited customer base, and need to be really really careful. One public mess up and it could do big damage to their reputation.

Originally Posted by honus94566

Paul, no offense, but can I ask you why your username is "bubblebathgirl"? Just curious.

Also, FWIW, I won an auction on goodwin the other night and my max bid was 1 notch nigher than I won the item for. So, the auction house could have "behind my back" looked at my max bid and bumped the price up to that level, but they did not do that. I agree with what the others have said - the main, larger auction houses in the hobby have a limited customer base, and need to be really really careful. One public mess up and it could do big damage to their reputation.

To be clear I'm not necessarily saying the proprietors are shilling the bids (though that's been known to happen) but rather those who consign to them. The same definitely happens on ebay, and in a CU thread a member was exposed for shilling his own auction that was consigned to a well know ebay seller.

But at least on ebay there is some evidence, so that's how this person was exposed. Whereas the offbay AHs provide no info on the bidders, and therefore shillers can run rampant if they choose.

[drc]

I think consignors bidding or getting associates/friends/family to bid is a legitimate concern. I don't know what you mean by transparent bidding, but if that means bidders' identities are public I'd be against it. I don't have a plan of my own to offer.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Bottom-line is that with AHs you put yourself in a much more vulnerable position, and we've all seen how premium cards go for crazy amounts at an AH only to take a nosedive on ebay.

Is this always the case? Of course not, but you'll almost never see a premium card go for less in an AH than on ebay.

I understand the point you are making, but I think at least some of that phenomenon is because eBay is lot more dicey than dealing with an auction house. I am certainly not a big fish, but if I was buying a real premium card, I would feel much more secure buying from an auction house than off of eBay. The chance of receiving an empty box or a reprint that was depicted as a real card in the listing is pretty much zero with an auction house.

The auction houses are not perfect by any means, but they also weed out the blatant scammers and rip off artists that are so common on eBay. How much of what you cited is people paying for peace of mind and not having to deal with the riff raff of sellers on eBay?

[OTWCards]

Auction House Transparency: All bidder names and/or ID's will be available and noted on each active auction item up to and including closing of the auction.

PRO: Identifies the bidder on the lot, provides a record of the bidder's purchase(s), allows bidders to see who they are bidding against or lost to, provides peace of mind to proponents that suggest such transparency will stem the tide of shill or false bids

CON: Provides purchase history and price point of attached to bidder, allows others to run up selected bidders, allows auction houses to create bidders/identities to use as shills which defeats the purpose of intended transparency

Scenario 1: High profile bidder, known to many in the hobby, is identified by his bidder name/ID and others, knowing high profile bidder will not be outbid, run up the item (in essence, shill bidding)

Scenario 2: Bidder wins lot or group of cards to break up and sells them. Bidding patterns and bidding strategy can then be identified and copied.

Scenario 3: Major dealer or another auction house bids and wins and resells item. The AH Investigative Team springs into action and calls out a conspiracy.

Scenario 4: A bidder wins a lot(s) and another bidder takes exception and makes a point to harass through eBay/message boards or outbid against the winner in the next auction.

Scenario 5: A bidder wins and no one cares.

Scenario 6: A bidder (fictitious auction house shill account) wins the auction after multiple shill bids and the auction house eventually offers the item to the under bidder or runs it again in the next auction while the "realized" price stands as a point of record.

I'm sure there are many other scenarios, but I really don't see how such transparency would cut down on shilling or false prices as all the auction house has to do is create false accounts (they could even utilize consignor names or addresses to camouflage this in the event of inquiry).

The attempt to create true transparency by use of actual bidder names would only cause some bidder NOT to engage in such auctions. There are times that I have no interest in others knowing what I am bidding on or purchasing. And I'm quite certain that there are some high profile bidders that enjoy and insist upon their anonymity...

[Sean1125]

In a perfect world an auction house would be completely transparent. In this world the closest we will get is an auction house that keep anonymity for the bidder but adds transparency in other areas for bidding (while still keeping the buyers anonymous if they want), descriptions, fees, etc.

[murcerfan]

The only solution is for all of you to stop bidding in online auctions.

That'll show 'em!

[markf31]

There is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. Even if AHs make all bidding transparent, that does not preclude people from creating and managing multiple accounts to shill their own consignments. Maybe it makes it slightly more challenging to do, but it certainly would not be difficult to do. And it would be even easier for those AHs that are nefarious themselves, to create a never ending supply of fake users to shill auctions for their own benefit.

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I understand the point you are making, but I think at least some of that phenomenon is because eBay is lot more dicey than dealing with an auction house. I am certainly not a big fish, but if I was buying a real premium card, I would feel much more secure buying from an auction house than off of eBay. The chance of receiving an empty box or a reprint that was depicted as a real card in the listing is pretty much zero with an auction house.

The auction houses are not perfect by any means, but they also weed out the blatant scammers and rip off artists that are so common on eBay. How much of what you cited is people paying for peace of mind and not having to deal with the riff raff of sellers on eBay?

I agree there are definitely scam and rip off artists on ebay, but at least you have buyer (and seller) protection if something goes wrong. With AHs you have no buyer protection at all. I've read stories of people receiving items NAD from AHs and then having to go through hell just to get a response.

Personally, I don't find any peace of mind bidding blindly and having no financial recourse if something goes wrong.


As for those who suggest just bid what you feel comfortable with, well, where do you get that comfort level from? Is it from research into what things have sold for recently in the past? If that research came from AH hammer prices then your own feeling of comfort might be coming from a shilled auction where you have no way of knowing what happened. Just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so.


Like I have said before, transparency is the only way to make it more difficult for people to cheat and scam. As long as humans exist there will always be those trying to take advantage through immoral means, but that doesn't mean you give up and say there is nothing you can do. It means you evolve, and if you don't, you get left in the dust. Adaptability is why humans have prevailed as the dominant species on this planet, and change is a good thing.

IMO, if you're afraid of people knowing what you're bidding on or buying, then you shouldn't be buying it. And I think the whole extended bidding system is nonsense. The system on ebay where it ends at an exact time and you drop in your bid at the last second to protect against any shill bidders works very well.

It's always better to have more information, that's how you get to the truth of situations by making informed decisions, it's how credibility is built and it's really the only way to get the closest to everyone winning.

[MikeU]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

I agree there are definitely scam and rip off artists on ebay, but at least you have buyer (and seller) protection if something goes wrong. With AHs you have no buyer protection at all. I've read stories of people receiving items NAD from AHs and then having to go through hell just to get a response.

Personally, I don't find any peace of mind bidding blindly and having no financial recourse if something goes wrong.


As for those who suggest just bid what you feel comfortable with, well, where do you get that comfort level from? Is it from research into what things have sold for recently in the past? If that research came from AH hammer prices then your own feeling of comfort might be coming from a shilled auction where you have no way of knowing what happened. Just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so.


Like I have said before, transparency is the only way to make it more difficult for people to cheat and scam. As long as humans exist there will always be those trying to take advantage through immoral means, but that doesn't mean you give up and say there is nothing you can do. It means you evolve, and if you don't, you get left in the dust. Adaptability is why humans have prevailed as the dominant species on this planet, and change is a good thing.

IMO, if you're afraid of people knowing what you're bidding on or buying, then you shouldn't be buying it. And I think the whole extended bidding system is nonsense. The system on ebay where it ends at an exact time and you drop in your bid at the last second to protect against any shill bidders works very well.

It's always better to have more information, that's how you get to the truth of situations by making informed decisions, it's how credibility is built and it's really the only way to get the closest to everyone winning.

You want auction houses to be completely transparent when you don't even allow your 79T baseball set to be transparent on the PSA registry?

[Wymers Auction]

I am an auctioneer and I will never publish any bidder list. The thought of that is ridiculous. The bidders have a right to their privacy and I am not in business to share my contacts with anyone. My advice Paul is that if you do not trust auction houses than vote with your wallet and stay away from them. Paul have you ever been cheated by am AH? Do you understand how valuable a bidder list is to an auction company and how much money was spent to generate those bidders. As an auctioneer, there are certain people who will not trust me know matter how much I can prove that I am trustworthy that is part of the business.

[yankeeno7]

I agree with bidder privacy. Some people spend incredible amounts of money and some may not want others to know who they are or what they spend because they do not want to become targets. You might not see such high bids if people dont get privacy. Ask some of the big spenders if they would want people knowing how much they spend. I would bet most of them choose to enjoy their privacy. Transparency would never prevent shilling in any way. To think so is naive even if it seems like a good idea.

[Deertick]

I have had to use a 'proxy bidder' in a live auction because another bidder had his panties in a wad because I won an item he wanted. He was running up every item I bid on, all the while turning and glaring at me. My proxy won every bid without interference.

Can you imagine the shenanigans if (Lelands, Heritage, etc) showed who the bidders were?

[glynparson]

Why do you think you have a right to know what someone else is purchasing for their collection? I do not think you have this right nor should you.

[drc]

My question is what is meant by 'transparency.' I'm against bidder's names being published, but perhaps what is meant is ebay-like nicknames or numbers.

I wouldn't bid at a place where my name is published. And I can understand why someone who won $300,000 worth of stuff and has a publicly available home address wouldn't want his name published. Publishing on the internet the name and address where $300,000 worth of stuff will soon be delivered-- now there's a smart idea.

And, besides, my dog has access to my computer. You could never prove the shilling was by me. Terriers are well known to be shifty.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by drc

And, besides, my dog has access to my computer. You could never prove the shilling was by me. Terriers are well known to be shifty.

I thought Josh Evans had the only dog with opposable thumbs in the hobby. I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by drc

My question is what is meant by 'transparency.' I'm against bidder's names being published, but perhaps what is meant is ebay-like nicknames or numbers.

I wouldn't bid at a place where my name is published. And I can understand why someone who won $300,000 worth of stuff and has a publicly available home address wouldn't want his name published. Publishing on the internet the name and address where $300,000 worth of stuff will soon be delivered-- now there's a smart idea.

And, besides, my dog has access to my computer. You could never prove the shilling was by me. Terriers are well known to be shifty.

Sure the nickname solution is a good compromise, and the one that ebay went with. It still allows savvy shoppers to track bidding patterns and expose some of those who try and cheat.

Like I said there will be those who simply contradict what I say because they are too entrenched in their own beliefs that they cannot even consider another. This will always be the case, and is of no real concern as they are the small, but vocal, minority.

I've pointed out the major danger of dealing with AHs, and you would be wise to avoid them for big ticket items until they change how they work to a way that is safer for the buyer ... the above mentioned nickname strategy is a reasonable starting point.

[OTWCards]

Paul:

Do you have any concept of the people that you're talking down to and trying to "educate" about auction houses? Some of these guys' single bid increments are more than your entire collection is worth. If you honestly think that they are so naive and unaware, then perhaps you are the one that needs to open your mind and look at this from another angle.

Dismissing those that challenge you as a "vocal minority" only reinforces your general disconnect with reality. Just because you believe something to be so, doesn't mean that it is right.

Again, rather than throw accusations and embellish your assumptions, lay out a legitimate plan of action that would protect the identity of the bidder AND eliminate the possibility of shilling by either the auction house or owner/bidders. Since you obviously have it all figured out, this shouldn't be too difficult -- albeit, a request that you continually ignore.

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

Like I said there will be those who simply contradict what I say because they are too entrenched in their own beliefs that they cannot even consider another. This will always be the case, and is of no real concern as they are the small, but vocal, minority.

Paul, serious question here. Unless you already have me on ignore, perhaps you'll answer.

What is an acceptable response to your stance? "Paul, all this time I have been blind to what AHs are doing, but you have opened my eyes. I, too, call on all AHs to have a truly transparent bidding process." (or some variation of, "you are right").

There is zero wiggle room in your position. It's either your way, or no way. Saying people are too entrenched in their beliefs and will not consider another is a bit like a pot/kettle situation. I sincerely think you have considered other positions and believe you are right. However, isn't it possible that others have actually considered your position and believe you are wrong? Sure seems that in your view, since others don't agree, they obviously must not have taken time to consider... 'cause if they did, my goodness, the heavens would open and the birds would sing.