SGC is now authenticating autographs

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

Which mutual funds do you own? Most people can name the fund, not the fund manager. The reputation of the company is the most important. People are always replaceable. PSA and JSA hire folks who they trust won't tarnish their reputation. If they do harm, they would be replaced. They survive and built a market because their level of expertise is pretty good. That means they get it right most of the time. In this world where we rely on the opinions of others in almost all aspects of our lives, right most of the time is all one can really expect.

this statement is wrong on so many levels, its ridiculous.

psa and jsa dont hire people who know autographs to authenticate, they hire them for marketing purposes. psa hires autograph runners who are well connected into the ebay and storefront markets, not for their experience in knowing and authenticating autographs.

these people they hire are connected into the "on the street" market and have many contacts and psa wants them to bring in business. knowing the autograph is secondary.

steve grad "in person autograph runner"
zach rullo "in person autograph runner"
kevin low "in person autograph runner"
brian sobrero " in person autograph runner" who once tripped tiger woods and sprained tiger's knee due to over-aggresive pursuit of woods autograph.



thse guys are not replaced. wny? because the customers are not aware they are doing harm. its a "trust me, i know what i am doing and that autograph is (good/no good)",

there is no auditing function. a money market fund has hard outcomes that are quantifiable, you either lose money or make it, and decide to change funds. that is why you dont have to know the name of the fund manager, he will be retained or fired based on their results.

now people will say that psa and jsa are doing a good job because the autographs are accepted on ebay and auction houses. but they are erroneously assuming that auction houses and ebay know good autographs from bad. they say that because others accept the certs, that they must be good. but others say the same thing. It's a case of both parties relying on the others acceptance to justify how good the tpa is doing, but neither is doing any inspection, it's circular logic, but no meat in the sandwich.

name a customer of psa and jsa who quantifies the results of the authentications they get and decides to continue with that company based on that? no one does. it's quite the opposite, many people tell me that they know psa and jsa aren't very good, but ebay accepts the certs and it is what others want so they just go along with the "Game".

i have said all along you can either get a psa or jsa cert, or you can find out if the autograph is real.


the customer doesnt really know if that autograph is good or bad if it has a psa or jsa cert. they are just going along with what psa or jsa says. there is no consumer reports for autographs that can compare, audit, and give results.

psa and jsa expertise is NOT pretty good. it is lacking in many areas. Pretty good is not good enough. Getting it right MOST of the time is not good enough.

51% accuracy is good enough? That's most of the time.

flipping a coin is 50%, and it's free. they need to be right all the time minus a very miniscule amount of human error. obviously you havent seen the nine trillion examples we have been posting over the last 4 years.

i hope you expect more competancy from your gas line installer, your brake mechanic, your day care provider.

[Big Dave]

+1

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

this statement is wrong on so many levels, its ridiculous.

psa and jsa dont hire people who know autographs to authenticate, they hire them for marketing purposes. psa hires autograph runners who are well connected into the ebay and storefront markets, not for their experience in knowing and authenticating autographs.

these people they hire are connected into the "on the street" market and have many contacts and psa wants them to bring in business. knowing the autograph is secondary.

steve grad "in person autograph runner"
zach rullo "in person autograph runner"
kevin low "in person autograph runner"
brian sobrero " in person autograph runner" who once tripped tiger woods and sprained tiger's knee due to over-aggresive pursuit of woods autograph.



thse guys are not replaced. wny? because the customers are not aware they are doing harm. its a "trust me, i know what i am doing and that autograph is (good/no good)",

there is no auditing function. a money market fund has hard outcomes that are quantifiable, you either lose money or make it, and decide to change funds. that is why you dont have to know the name of the fund manager, he will be retained or fired based on their results.

now people will say that psa and jsa are doing a good job because the autographs are accepted on ebay and auction houses. but they are erroneously assuming that auction houses and ebay know good autographs from bad. they say that because others accept the certs, that they must be good. but others say the same thing. It's a case of both parties relying on the others acceptance to justify how good the tpa is doing, but neither is doing any inspection, it's circular logic, but no meat in the sandwich.

name a customer of psa and jsa who quantifies the results of the authentications they get and decides to continue with that company based on that? no one does. it's quite the opposite, many people tell me that they know psa and jsa aren't very good, but ebay accepts the certs and it is what others want so they just go along with the "Game".

i have said all along you can either get a psa or jsa cert, or you can find out if the autograph is real.


the customer doesnt really know if that autograph is good or bad if it has a psa or jsa cert. they are just going along with what psa or jsa says. there is no consumer reports for autographs that can compare, audit, and give results.

psa and jsa expertise is NOT pretty good. it is lacking in many areas. Pretty good is not good enough. Getting it right MOST of the time is not good enough.

51% accuracy is good enough? That's most of the time.

flipping a coin is 50%, and it's free. they need to be right all the time minus a very miniscule amount of human error. obviously you havent seen the nine trillion examples we have been posting over the last 4 years.

i hope you expect more competancy from your gas line installer, your brake mechanic, your day care provider.

We agree to disagree on the level of competence of the tpas. Are you saying psa or jsa is equal to global or morales or ace? For the shear number of autos they look at, their record is pretty good, probably over 95%. You're saying they are wrong half the time? There are 781 psa mantles. Pick out the 380 that you think they got wrong.

[David Atkatz]

Will people please stop comparing PSA and JSA with Morales, et.al.?
PSA and JSA actually try to authenticate. They're just not that good at it.
Morales and his ilk are NOT authenticators. They give an automatic thumbs-up to everything. They are very good ta what they do. And what they do is defraud the public.

[cubsfan-budman]

i know know about my mutual funds, but this thread continues to pay dividends!

/popcorn!

[Sean1125]

I've had an item authenticated by PSA that JSA told me was traced over.

(Original Collection--->JSA (NG)--->PSA (issues full Loa))

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

We agree to disagree on the level of competence of the tpas. Are you saying psa or jsa is equal to global or morales or ace? For the shear number of autos they look at, their record is pretty good, probably over 95%. You're saying they are wrong half the time? There are 781 psa mantles. Pick out the 380 that you think they got wrong.

Agreed. Silliness.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the customer doesnt really know if that autograph is good or bad if it has a psa or jsa cert. they are just going along with what psa or jsa says.

But that's the case when most and certainly the large majority of customers buy autographs from anyone. Most buyers don't know how to tell a good autograph from a bad one, thats why they rely on the opinions of others. I trust Jim, Richard, Kevin, etc... but at the end of the day, when I purchase an auotgraph from them I'm simply "going along with what they say"...because I trust them completely.

[shelly]

The bottom line is that if you do not have a cert by the top tpa's you will not sell at the same price from all of our beloved experts on this site. If anyone of you can show me where I a wrong I will donate 20 dollars to what ever fund Leon has.
I am not talking about keeping an item I am only talking about selling to any of the top auction houses. The only[person that might not care is Josh Evans because he will replace it with his own. The rest of them will not accept a cert from our guys. RandR , Robert Edwards. Memory Lane. Hunt, you name them and show me on cert from anyone but they should not be named
It cant be on piece. It must be understood that I trust these guys more than the others but when it comes down to the money it does not count. You can trust to get their opinion but you can not sell and opinion from them.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

The bottom line is that if you do not have a cert by the top tpa's you will not sell at the same price from all of our beloved experts on this site. If anyone of you can show me where I a wrong I will donate 20 dollars to what ever fund Leon has.
I am not talking about keeping an item I am only talking about selling to any of the top auction houses. The only[person that might not care is Josh Evans because he will replace it with his own. The rest of them will not accept a cert from our guys. RandR , Robert Edwards. Memory Lane. Hunt, you name them and show me on cert from anyone but they should not be named
It cant be on piece. It must be understood that I trust these guys more than the others but when it comes down to the money it does not count. You can trust to get their opinion but you can not sell and opinion from them.

I really am not being sarcastic or trying to be funny but are you saying that if someone whos estate or collection with a value of oh lets say $100,000 and consists of ...oh lets say 19th century autograph rarities and they send them to a reputable and reasonably intelligent auction house or dealer that they will refuse to buy or sell them based on the fact they do not have a COA ????
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I really am not being sarcastic or trying to be funny but are you saying that if someone whos estate or collection with a value of oh lets say $100,000 and consists of ...oh lets say 19th century autograph rarities and they send them to a reputable and reasonably intelligent auction house or dealer that they will refuse to buy or sell them based on the fact they do not have a COA ????
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

+1

the good stuff doesnt need the certs, people can think for themselves. how DOES leland's stay in business?

[HRBAKER]

The Third Party certs make it easy for the AHs to wash their
hands of any potential issues. Make it easy for them to pose
as nothing but a conduit. Hence they love them, that and plus
it makes the items more liquid.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

The Third Party certs make it easy for the AHs to wash their
hands of any potential issues. Make it easy for them to pose
as nothing but a conduit. Hence they love them, that and plus
it makes the items more liquid.

This man just condensed 10 hours of truth into a couple sentences ....Its inarguable.
Now let me say something that pales in comparision BUT should be said only because of the inevitable rebutals and that is THIS...

I like to play cards ....according to the "Book of Hoyle" which is the card players bible so to speak the rule is "THE CARDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES" which means when I lay down my cards and say I have a straight but in reality I have a STRAIGHT FLUSH , Then if I call it an elephant or giraffe or whatever I call it ....the cards still speak for themselves , it is what it is regardless of what I or anyone else calls it ...it is what it is , The CARDS speak for themselves
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

Originally Posted by travrosty

+1

the good stuff doesnt need the certs, people can think for themselves. how DOES leland's stay in business?

Travis you hate them so what ever you say is biased. I am trying to say that your coa compared to the jsa's will not get the same money or they will have yours cert changed to theirs if it is an auction house. Six out of the top Seven houses use those guys. There must be a reason

[shelly]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I really am not being sarcastic or trying to be funny but are you saying that if someone whos estate or collection with a value of oh lets say $100,000 and consists of ...oh lets say 19th century autograph rarities and they send them to a reputable and reasonably intelligent auction house or dealer that they will refuse to buy or sell them based on the fact they do not have a COA ????
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I am saying that the auction house will not use your coa but that of Jsa and Psa to make more money. Is this not ture?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

I am saying that the auction house will not use your coa but that of Jsa and Psa to make more money. Is this not ture?

Shelly are you posting from Jamaica ? tell the truth
What I am saying is that a reputable dealer with an untarnished reputation will sell autographs for MORE money based on their consistant performance of excellence and customer service for MORE than a seller that is flailing around blindly in the dark and needs to rely or worse throw off responsibility to another party , whatever they call themselves. To quote one of my previous posts THE CARDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES no one is going to turn away a substantial collection based on COA's or TPA's or whatever you want to call them. And I SINCERELY hope you are correct because if thats the case I have just recieved a MASSIVE pay increase
Friend JIM
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

Jim, I only wished I was in Jamaica , but I am talking reality.I will say this one more time a Psa Mantle, vs. your cert or Richards who is going to get more money. You must be smoking bad Jamaican weed.
Tell me any auction house that will use your cert vs. Psa.
You know I am telling the truth. Why am I the bad guy?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by markf31

Most buyers don't know how to tell a good autograph from a bad one, thats why they rely on the opinions of others.

Mark, you make a very good point. This is exactly why the hobby NEEDS authenticators. But you STILL have to do your research, either yourself on the signature, or on the authenticators.

Edited - removed the argumentative part

[drc]

In any area of collecting, asking for the opinions and input from others is important-- whether the other is a museum curator or just a fellow collecting friend nextdoor who has some experience in the area. There's nothing wrong per se with a PSA or JSA LOA-- as long as you treat it as an opinion and not as gospel.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by drc

In any area of collecting, asking for the opinions and input from others is important-- whether the other is a museum curator or just a fellow collecting friend nextdoor who has some experience in the area. There's nothing wrong per se with a PSA or JSA LOA-- as long as you treat it as an opinion and not as gospel.

Except that it is treated as gospel. The majority of "collectors" won't buy anything that doesn't have a PSA or JSA CoA, and will buy anything that does.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Except that it is treated as gospel. The majority of "collectors" won't buy anything that doesn't have a PSA or JSA CoA, and will buy anything that does.

Isn't that mainly just true of flippers or re-sellers? When I buy a 'permanent' piece for my collection, I don't care whether or not it has a COA. It's nice if it does, but that won't affect what I'm willing to pay.

And that's true of at least one other collector on this board. I recently sold a handwritten Walter Johnson letter to him and forgot to even mention the PSA/DNA COA. I found it yesterday while cleaning out a drawer - had forgotten it had come with one.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Isn't that mainly just true of flippers or re-sellers? When I buy a 'permanent' piece for my collection, I don't care whether or not it has a COA. It's nice if it does, but that won't affect what I'm willing to pay.

And that's true of at least one other collector on this board. I recently sold a handwritten Walter Johnson letter to him and forgot to even mention the PSA/DNA COA. I found it yesterday while cleaning out a drawer - had forgotten it had come with one.

Scott, that's why "collectors" was in quotes. the majority of them are not on this board. Howe many autograph collectors are here? One hundred or so?
Hardly enough to keep JSA and PSA in business.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i hope you expect more competancy from your gas line installer, your brake mechanic, your day care provider.

Wow!

I do, but none of those things are hobbies for me. if you are putting an autograph authentication service next to a child's day care provider on any level, than I can see why you have such a deep hatred for these TPAs. Most of us simply don't care nearly that much.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Wow!

I do, but none of those things are hobbies for me. if you are putting an autograph authentication service next to a child's day care provider on any level, than I can see why you have such a deep hatred for these TPAs. Most of us simply don't care nearly that much.

Except that, in our society, the autograph authenticator is far more handsomely compensated than the day-care provider.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Wow!

I do, but none of those things are hobbies for me. if you are putting an autograph authentication service next to a child's day care provider on any level, than I can see why you have such a deep hatred for these TPAs. Most of us simply don't care nearly that much.

you have a low standard of competency for those who you potentially do business with, thats ok, i don't. I expect someone is in business, they know what they are doing. its NOT ok to expect less just because they arent watching your kids but instead authenticating autographs.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

you have a low standard of competency for those who you potentially do business with, thats ok, i don't. I expect someone is in business, they know what they are doing. its NOT ok to expect less just because they arent watching your kids but instead authenticating autographs.

I think it's perfectly OK. It's not that I expect less, it's that I don't expect anything. This is sports autographs, scribble on paper, ZERO intrinsic value, a hobby. There are people who give opinions about such things. Some are better than others. Their opinions can be ignored or treated as fact. None of it bothers me in the least.