SGC is now authenticating autographs

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by HOFAUTOS

I only get items I want to sell authenticated, and most collectors have never heard of Jim, Travis, Richard, or Chris, therefore they want the item to have a PSA/DNA or JSA certificate. I don't like it but that's the way things are. The first thing they ask us who is the cert from? Without even examining the autograph! It sucks that its this way but it is what it is.

Side note - I love the SGC holder and wouldn't mind getting some of my signed cards slabbed. That's why I wanted to know how much it is.

If "most collectors" have never heard of Jim Stinson or Richard Simon its likely they have not been in this game too long. Pop quiz
1) Who were the original 4 consultants for PSA ?
2) Who was the consultant with the LEAST experience ?
3) Which consultant was a guest at Jim Stinson's wedding ? hint its the answer to #2
4) Is it important to you that the item have a COA or is REAL ?
and lastly if you think a COA is going to sell the item for you, REAL collectors ...REAL authenticators like the members who read this board are FAR smarter and informed than you think
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

All bull aside. This is just another place opening up for business. My question is why would the public accept them as people they should trust. They are not PSA or JSA . Global was a joke, why not them.
Jim and Rich might make jokes but who in the autograph authenticating world has any idea who they are. Every one on this site even David has respect for them, but what does it mean when your trying to sell something? Not anyone who is going to spend money or try and resell an item purchased from them.
Tell the truth if you had a piece authenticated by the above mentioned would you try and have it authenticated by PSA or JSA if and when you wanted to sell it?
If you had a great boxing piece would you send it to Travis. Not a chance in hell. This is all about money.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by shelly

All bull aside. This is just another place opening up for business. My question is why would the public accept them as people they should trust. They are not PSA or JSA . Global was a joke, why not them.
Jim and Rich might make jokes but who in the autograph authenticating world has any idea who they are. Every one on this site even David has respect for them, but what does it mean when your trying to sell something? Not anyone who is going to spend money or try and resell an item purchased from them.
Tell the truth if you had a piece authenticated by the above mentioned would you try and have it authenticated by PSA or JSA if and when you wanted to sell it?
If you had a great boxing piece would you send it to Travis. Not a chance in hell. This is all about money.

well, i think that it really depends on what your goals are when buying things. in general, i wait for someone to sell something on B/S/T or Richard or Jim's email blasts because i'm a collector, not a seller.

all i care about is if it is real. i dont give a crap whether i can sell it on ebay.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

well, i think that it really depends on what your goals are when buying things. in general, i wait for someone to sell something on B/S/T or Richard or Jim's email blasts because i'm a collector, not a seller.

all i care about is if it is real. i dont give a crap whether i can sell it on ebay.

+1

[Deertick]

Not to burst your ego (like I even could ), but..... "most collectors" don't know you guys from Adam. Just like they don't know *ANY* authenticator. But they put their money on the generally accepted belief (hope) that a TPA knows what they are doing. (Which feeds the scammers that have pretty holograms and websites).

Put another way: Let's say you are a seller of precious metals. You are a good merchant, possibly even the best. You always give your customers a fair price and good quality. But you measure gold composition in stinsons instead of karats. Your stinson may be identical to karats. Those who have done business with you, love your service and price. However, when they try to resell, they're going to have a hard time selling an 18 stinson gold chain without having to convert it to karats. For those in the know, easy sell. For the vast majority...not so much.

Disclaimer: I have not had any dealings with anyone mentioned thus far, including ANY TPA.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by shelly

All bull aside. This is just another place opening up for business. My question is why would the public accept them as people they should trust. They are not PSA or JSA . Global was a joke, why not them.
Jim and Rich might make jokes but who in the autograph authenticating world has any idea who they are. Every one on this site even David has respect for them, but what does it mean when your trying to sell something? Not anyone who is going to spend money or try and resell an item purchased from them.
Tell the truth if you had a piece authenticated by the above mentioned would you try and have it authenticated by PSA or JSA if and when you wanted to sell it?
If you had a great boxing piece would you send it to Travis. Not a chance in hell. This is all about money.

i always ask people do they want to get a cert from psa or jsa or find out if it is real? most just want the cert. i do have SMART PEOPLE who would send me stuff because they know other smart people would see my name on a cert and be confident it is real. i actually have a few who want to send me their stuff right now, because they want to know if it is real or not and why and an certification that is backed up by exemplars and evidence, and no secrets.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i always ask people do they want to get a cert from psa or jsa or find out if it is real? most just want the cert. i do have SMART PEOPLE who would send me stuff because they know other smart people would see my name on a cert and be confident it is real. i actually have a few who want to send me their stuff right now, because they want to know if it is real or not and why and an certification that is backed up by exemplars and evidence, and no secrets.

I have been told, by good sources, that dealers, including those who are big ebay sellers, know that an item is not good but it has a TPA cert and that is all they care about. Knowing it is not good they still go ahead and sell it.
It has a plastic tomb and a cert,,, it is good to go .
I have been told that this is the case but no evidence was shown to me to back up this story.

[JimStinson]

The blind leading the blind.....Kick it Ray !
"What'd I Say"
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[HRBAKER]

I don't really think it is too much to ask to know the name of the EXPERT whose opinion you are paying for. Just seems like so much common sense to me.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I don't really think it is too much to ask to know the name of the EXPERT whose opinion you are paying for. Just seems like so much common sense to me.

Was able to secure a photo of one of the "experts"......Common sense ??? what in the world is common sense ?
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I have been told, by good sources, that dealers, including those who are big ebay sellers, know that an item is not good but it has a TPA cert and that is all they care about. Knowing it is not good they still go ahead and sell it.
It has a plastic tomb and a cert,,, it is good to go .
I have been told that this is the case but no evidence was shown to me to back up this story.

there are collectors here that do that. i have been told that despite the evidence presented, that spence certed it and thats all they care about.

the oscar bonavena on ebay right now was returned by the first bidder who won it and returned it due to the fact its no good, even though it has a psa cert. the dealer relisted it. it has a psa cert by the way. who cares what the people with 20 or 30 years boxing autograph experience have to say about it.

some guy at psa who saw "Rocky" 5 times said it was good, so it must be.

i know there are people out there who know some of there stuff is no good, but sell it anyway due to the fact they won the "cert lottery"

the james corbett that was no good has a jsa cert and the holyfield slabbed card has a psa cert, and we presented the facts and those owners still love their psa and jsa certed autographs.

[Deertick]

I'm beginning to hope PSA certed Travis' birth certificate.

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

If "most collectors" have never heard of Jim Stinson or Richard Simon its likely they have not been in this game too long. Pop quiz
1) Who were the original 4 consultants for PSA ?
2) Who was the consultant with the LEAST experience ?
3) Which consultant was a guest at Jim Stinson's wedding ? hint its the answer to #2
4) Is it important to you that the item have a COA or is REAL ?
and lastly if you think a COA is going to sell the item for you, REAL collectors ...REAL authenticators like the members who read this board are FAR smarter and informed than you think
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

. . . and say perhaps it was/could have been fellow autograph dealer Bill Corcoran ?

I'm only guessing BC just because of both of you had worked from Florida at one time or another, as well as co-hosted a hospitality room together at a Cleveland National, with Bob Feller as the visiting celebrity.

On a more serious note, I already feel that each and every one of my purchases from Jim Stinson, Richard Simon, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug Averitt, and Kevin Keating has come with a LOA (which may someday come in useful when the time comes to part with my collection); each came with a invoice written on company letterhead which I have saved. Nuf said.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

. . . and say perhaps it was/could have been fellow autograph dealer Bill Corcoran ?

I'm only guessing BC just because of both of you had worked from Florida at one time or another, as well as co-hosted a hospitality room together at a Cleveland National, with Bob Feller as the visiting celebrity.

On a more serious note, I already feel that each and every one of my purchases from Jim Stinson, Richard Simon, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug Averitt, and Kevin Keating has come with a LOA (which may someday come in useful when the time comes to part with my collection); each came with a invoice written on company letterhead which I have saved. Nuf said.

You are correct. I do have one question. All the above named people have authenticated your collection. God forbid you now need money and you want to sell this collection. Who would buy it with the names you mentioned on the cert. You cant sell it on Ebay no one has any idea who these people are. Now you go to an auction house who does know who they are.
What happens? You now pay twenty percent to have it authenticated by the same TPA's. Now the the two or three wonders of the autograph world now say it is not authentic. Who are you going to sell it to ?
I must make this very clear I would trust all the people named above more than any TPA. I am just trying to relate to you what the public thinks.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Shelly is right on the money. He could not have hit the nail on the head any better. The bottom line is that it's not what people that know autographs believe, it is the common rube that just wants to feel good about his purchase. Anybody that has collected and bought autographs over the years would feel very comfortable buying from any of the guys listed. Those are not the people we are talking about.

BUT, people are sticking their head in the sand if you do not believe that having the PSA of JSA cert increases the demand for your item. The only arguement is that does it increase the amount more than the cost you incur. It's just like saying that encapsulation / grading does not help or increase the sale of a card. It's an arguement that just doesn't hold merit.

[Leon]

Sounds like good marketing to me.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Leon

Sounds like good marketing to me.

it only goes so far, good marketing, lousy customer service, in time that plan will fall flat on its face. it will take someone to make a major push and have transparency, customer service, be accountable to the customer.

for now it may be working because abc is the same as xyz. same pricing structure, same customer service, same coa, same authentication.

woolworths used to be the biggest store chain on the planet, and i am sure the owner thought it would never end. its ends sometime, everything does.

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by shelly

You are correct. I do have one question. All the above named people have authenticated your collection. God forbid you now need money and you want to sell this collection. Who would buy it with the names you mentioned on the cert. You cant sell it on Ebay no one has any idea who these people are. Now you go to an auction house who does know who they are.
What happens? You now pay twenty percent to have it authenticated by the same TPA's. Now the the two or three wonders of the autograph world now say it is not authentic. Who are you going to sell it to ?
I must make this very clear I would trust all the people named above more than any TPA. I am just trying to relate to you what the public thinks.

I often forget that as an autograph collector who's primary focus (for the past 10-15 years) has been on obtaining obscure ballplayer autographs, that I have marginally little in common with the majority of baseball autograph collectors requiring a TPA. That's why I enjoy this forum so much. Regardless of how main stream, or obscure an individual's collecting focus is, the contributions by all members make for interesting reading, learning, and community sharing.

[RichardSimon]

I have a couple of thousand people on my mailing list.
I have sold thousands of autographs through my mailing list. It is my main source of business.
Many members of Net54 are members of my list and many have bought great items and many have been disappointed by missing out on great items, sorry guys most things I have are only one of a kind and you have to be quicker on the trigger .
In all the time that I have done this, I have only twice been asked if an item came with a TPA COA and that was from two totally new members of my list.
People who know me, know that I do not use TPA's and yet they have great trust in me.
The people who know me know that I would not try to sell an Ed "Delehanty" letter or try to sell two George W. Bush autopen letters that I had at the same time for easy comparison.
Find the experienced and knowledgeable dealers and auction houses and stick with them.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I have a couple of thousand people on my mailing list.
I have sold thousands of autographs through my mailing list. It is my main source of business.
Many members of Net54 are members of my list and many have bought great items and many have been disappointed by missing out on great items, sorry guys most things I have are only one of a kind and you have to be quicker on the trigger .
In all the time that I have done this, I have only twice been asked if an item came with a TPA COA and that was from two totally new members of my list.
People who know me, know that I do not use TPA's and yet they have great trust in me.
The people who know me know that I would not try to sell an Ed "Delehanty" letter or try to sell two George W. Bush autopen letters that I had at the same time for easy comparison.
Find the experienced and knowledgeable dealers and auction houses and stick with them.

Richard no one is saying that be the people that you sell dont trust you. I am saying if they need to sell because of an emergency would they get the same money because of your cert or would they have to spend money on a new cert from one of the TPA or put it in an auction to get the price its worth.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

Richard no one is saying that be the people that you sell dont trust you. I am saying if they need to sell because of an emergency would they get the same money because of your cert or would they have to spend money on a new cert from one of the TPA or put it in an auction to get the price its worth.

The answer to that question is simple, I buy collections ALL OF THE TIME that have been sold by me, or any of the other reputable dealers that have been mentioned here . Either from the original collector or their estates. I will occasionally ask to see a bill of sale but never a COA.
Most realize a substantial profit too over what they originally paid, especially over the span of the last 30, 20 or even 5 years.

And who better to sell to then the fellow that helped build your collection in the first place , lended free advice, gave opinions for free, and helped the collector avoid many of the hobby's horror stories.

In fact I recieve on average a collection or two a week and negotiate a deal. Maybe once a year I have to send a collection back because we can't agree on price but I honestly can't remember the last time I've ever had to send one back.
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

. . . and say perhaps it was/could have been fellow autograph dealer Bill Corcoran ?

I'm only guessing BC just because of both of you had worked from Florida at one time or another, as well as co-hosted a hospitality room together at a Cleveland National, with Bob Feller as the visiting celebrity.

On a more serious note, I already feel that each and every one of my purchases from Jim Stinson, Richard Simon, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug Averitt, and Kevin Keating has come with a LOA (which may someday come in useful when the time comes to part with my collection); each came with a invoice written on company letterhead which I have saved. Nuf said.

+1- Correct!

[Exhibitman]

This thread is a bit surreal, really: isn't it a bit premature to judge SGC's service before it even starts? Who grades a card doesn't prove jack-squat about whether it is graded properly. The proof is in the results. Simply saying "it's gonna be crap" is as much a guess as simply assuming it will be good. How about trying the actual product before judging it?

When the SGC haters have something concrete to show, then it is worth a three-page debate. Until then, this thread has all the weight of a popcorn fart.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This thread is a bit surreal, really: isn't it a bit premature to judge SGC's service before it even starts? Who grades a card doesn't prove jack-squat about whether it is graded properly. The proof is in the results. Simply saying "it's gonna be crap" is as much a guess as simply assuming it will be good. How about trying the actual product before judging it?

When the SGC haters have something concrete to show, then it is worth a three-page debate. Until then, this thread has all the weight of a popcorn fart.

Buttered or non-buttered? I am thinking extra oil equals stronger poot.

[travrosty]

The problem is how do collectors judge how good they are? it's not accuracy, it is whether or not they get the cert and they can buy and sell on ebay and auction houses. If it gets slabbed and accepted on ebay and the auction houses, then they are doing a great job, aren't they, regardless of whether or not they are accurate? These are two different things. my standard of whether or not a company is doing a good job is whether or not they are accurate, period.

We have already heard collectors say that if psa says its good, thats good enough for them, even if the autograph is no good, because they can sell it in the slab and that's all they are looking for.


Why even send it to this new service when psa and jsa are doing such a bang up job??? if this new service just takes any evander holyfield "signed" trading card and encapsulates it, then they will be doing a great job too!!!!

Most collectors only want the certs and slabs and couldn't care if they are accurate and wouldn't now how to judge accuracy anyway, because when someone like me points it out, i get accused of "cherry picking" and nitpicking. It's only accuracy, it's not like it is the ability to buy and sell on ebay and auction houses, which is all that counts to most collectors. Don't mess with that. Accuracy falls by the wayside and is a secondary concern if it is a concern at all.

CLARIFICATION, someone said "before it even starts." It has started!!!! We just don't know who the authenticators are, if they are going to disclose who looks at the autograph or not, if they are going to show exemplars they used, if they are going to give a "detailed" explanation if the autographh fails. All of these questions are unanswered. I have sent them emails and haven't got a response. It will probably be a psa and jsa "clone job". Just slab them and keep going. Keep the collectors happy, bread and circuses. And it exists this way because the big services want it to be this way, they don't want a focus on accuracy, just acceptability in the hobby, which they can influence and control without them necessarily being accurate. Once it turns into an accuracy standard, then they are in trouble, they don't want that, because then they would be required to be accurate! So they keep touting the acceptability standard, GO WITH US, IT WILL BE ACCEPTED IN THE AUCTION HOUSES AND ON EBAY!

There are two kinds of real, abc and xyz company real, and 'actually real'. A lot of collectors are only concerned with abc and xyz real, they couldn't care less about actually real because i have emailed some and PROVED that their slabbed autograph is only abc and xyz real, and is not actually real and they tell me to go jump in the lake.

Someone send me a PM and tell me who michael root is, and why he has less than 1 YEAR's exposuire on JSA's expert page, and how that qualifies him to be the lead authenticator for this company? How many certs has he signed in the past? What is his specialty category? Anything about this guy????? And why is considered taboo to ask questions about a new guy authenticating?

Because certain people here and elsewhere don't want the answers to come about. they want the status quo because the status quo slabs their autographs, pays their bills and keeps them on the coat-tail train. We wouldn't want an accuracy and transparency and accountability debate to break out because that threatens the good thing they (the collectors, the hobby insiders and others who profit) have going. I have gotten banned from another site (some autograph periodical joke site) for saying these things, but thank God for free speech here. I have to give this site credit for that.

[travrosty]

If you want proof of this 'homerism' in the hobby, just go to another site where someone gives an article on SGC, touting its credentials in autograph authentication (there are some?)

Then in the comment section below, someone asks if their autographs are going to be worth the same with an sgc cert as opposed to the other big two companies.

The article writer then chimes in and says that SGC is a brand name and they should be on par with psa and jsa in that regard. So it's psa, jsa, and SGC.

Remember SGC "hasn't even started yet" according to some, but to give them praise is allowable and expected, but to question and have criticism is not allowed!!!!!!!!! Funny world, isn't it?

I then go to the comment section and ask this same editor "how can you call them on par when they are a card grading service only and have NO autograph authenticating experience at all prior to announcing they are now accepting autographs for authentication?" I then go on to say that Betty Crocker is a brand name, but if they started authenticating autographs, how does that make them credible in that regard? SGC grades cards.

Guess what? I got no response and that is typical. the article writer was breaking his arm responding to the first poster who asked if sgc authentications would be worth as much as psa and jsa, because he wanted to make sure to "prime the pump" and tell people not to worry, that sgc authentications will be on par with the others.

But when someone asks a tough question, he follows the company line, which is prevalent within the autograph hobby, and clams up, and doesn't answer. Because he HAS NO ANSWER for this question, it is out of bounds, and it is a question that should be buried because it questions the status quo, where only certain companies are allowed to drink out of the trough and wet their beak so to speak, and others who are not connected into the "program" get shut out and can't get any publicity.

A lot of people here know this is true but won't admit it because they don't want to be on the "outs" with the people who have the power to influence the collector. So they shut up too and go along with the gravy train that is set up for some and not for others, and it's by design. And the people that agree with me are afraid to post too out of fear of retaliation, but they send me a PM or an email telling me they agree. There are only a few who aren't afraid to tell the truth on the public forums.

Disclosure--, i am not an authenticator for jsa or auction house, or psa, and i don't take consideration from any of these, I authenticate for myself only and for a few friends who know where to go to get an honest, accurate opinion on boxing autographs.

[HOFAUTOS]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

If "most collectors" have never heard of Jim Stinson or Richard Simon its likely they have not been in this game too long. Pop quiz
1) Who were the original 4 consultants for PSA ?
2) Who was the consultant with the LEAST experience ?
3) Which consultant was a guest at Jim Stinson's wedding ? hint its the answer to #2
4) Is it important to you that the item have a COA or is REAL ?
and lastly if you think a COA is going to sell the item for you, REAL collectors ...REAL authenticators like the members who read this board are FAR smarter and informed than you think
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I'm not an old school collector so most of those questions i couldn't answer. I've only been collecting autographs for 15 years. I am a member of 5 different hobby boards and when myself or someone else lists an autograph for sale, the first thing always asked is if it has a PSA/DNA or JSA cert, with the exception being on SCN where people trust my opinion and my money back guarantee. It helps that SCN is an actual autograph website with experienced collectors, where as the other sites are more on the card side. Like I said before, I only submit the items I want to sell to get authenticated, unless I'm listing them on SCN, but even then I still can't fully price on it compared to if it came with a cert.

I buy autographs all the time without certs. Heck I don't even own an autograph with a certificate, except for a few pack pulled autographs. I buy all my autographs on ebay and know they are the real deal.

[JasonD08]

I have read this thread and would like to chime in with my 2 cents for all its worth. I purchased a large lot of 60,000 signed cards from all sports from an original collection through the help of the most reputable dealer i know and one of the hobbies must trusted honest people. With that being said I have been scanning and listing for 2 years and still have not made a big dent in this unbelievable collection. Many expert collectors such as Olbermann, and a few others who have multiple complete sets have been my best customers. There is no doubt these are all 100% legit autos with most being acquired in person at sporting games, spring trainings, and other venues. Considering I have thousands of singles which include hall of famers, deceased, stars, and tough autos that value atleast $25 each or more, I have considered slabbing to maximize my profit. Here is my take:

PSA- I have been submitting regular unsigned vintage cards for awhile only to be disappointed in the lack of skilled grading. I have recently had PSA 5s go to trimmed, PSA 6(mc) go back to 6, a 4 to a 7 amongst other nonsense. With that being said I realize that PSA/DNA should maximize my value on my signed material. I called twice with follow ups to show interest in submitting 1000 cards lots for PSA DNA blue flip only to get ignored and calls not returned.

JSA- I called Spence recently to try to talk to him about possibly submitting a deal in bulk and have BGS slab them (like the holders) and got a different authenticator. I left my number and he never called me back nor did anyone else from the company. I was even referred to him by the reputable dealer who knows him personally.

My take is that PSA and JSA must be swamped with so much business that they do not need mine. I will give JSA benefit of the doubt for I bet Jimmy never even got my message, but still needs to know whats going on. PSA on the other hand has 0 customer service.

I think SGC can become a real player here if they step up and play their cards right. Auto original cards are becoming evermore red hot in this hobby and if they can give a good service to dealers and collectors alike for a reasonable price, (not $15 or $20 per card) then they can take alot of PSAs pie in time. JSA will most likely not be able to compete considering beckett gets their hand in the cookie jar. SGC MUST step up their promotional game, really plug this and step up the website etc. They must be ready and willing to give the collectors good deals and great service with this service and undercut the other 2 companies. Perhaps even a blue label vs. green or something to set them apart. I may give them a call tomorrow and see what they have in store and I would be willing to give them a try. Right now PSA has the market and there is no need to give service. I think competition of quality is healthy and SGC would be able to deliver if they push hard.


Jason