T206 Print Groups-A Quick Overview

[mrvster]

Great input...I love the summation Tim!!
I have always wondered about the super prints with sov 460 backs since i'm attempting the sub- set...the general "rarity" is disputed amongst collectors, but I have trouble finding these super prints...I know there are other sov 460 combos just as tuf, but the superprints in this paticuliar sub set seem to get alot of attention in regard to the apparent rarity...any thoughts on this?? the rarity of the super-prints in sov 460???

Scot!!- Where has Jamie BEEN??!!! I love his Ford Tolstoi Scrap and the split front top to bottom different player Phillipe and engle

[sreader3]

mrvster,

I know Ted is of the view that the six superprints are harder to find with Sovereign 460 than the 460-only subjects are to find with that back. I'm not inclined to question that--especially since Ted is the only person I know to have put together a complete Sovereign-only T206 set.

Jamie was a very cool and humble guy and extremely knowledgeable about T206. He was an asset to the hobby and I hope he returns to this board some day.

Scot

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Jamie was a very cool and humble guy and extremely knowledgeable about T206. He was an asset to the hobby and I hope he returns to this board some day.

Scot

He was on the board 3 weeks ago and posted a couple months ago. Did something happen to him?

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by Leon

He was on the board 3 weeks ago and posted a couple months ago. Did something happen to him?

That's good to hear, Leon. Maybe it's me who needs to frequent the board more often.

[Abravefan11]

Scot - I'm always up for agreeing to disagree but I'll continue to make my case as long as you would like to discuss it.

All 48 southern league subjects were planned with Hindu backs. The 1909 Hindu advertisements included the Texas league in its description, but none were printed.



The important thing the print groups do is to place the right subjects, into the proper production timelines. All 48 southern league subjects began production at the same time, and were discontinued at the same time. This is what makes them a single print group.

The fact that 14 southern league subjects were absent from the printing of a certain back isn't reason enough to split them into two separate groups. Within other print groups we see many subjects printed with backs others in the same group were not.

[sreader3]

Tim,

Have to disagree. The 34 SLers that were printed with Hindu are tougher with Pied 350 than the 14 SLers that were not printed with Hindu, just as the 150/350 major leaguers are tougher with Pied 350 than the 350-only major leaguers. It is in fact a paradox that the 34 SLers that are possible with THREE backs (Hindu, Pied 350, OMS) are more difficult than the 14 SLers that are only possible with TWO backs (Pied 350, OMS). The explanation for this seeming paradox is that the 14 are, like the 350-only major leaguers, much more plentiful with Pied 350 and this trumps the small Hindu production from which the 14 were excluded.

The 14 SLers that are not possible with Hindu were launched with the 350-only major leaguers and comprise a separate print group in my opinion. Not sure what your Hindu ad proves as we both know the Texas leaguers were not printed with Hindu.

Scot

[Abravefan11]

Scot - Is it your opinion that the 14 southern league subjects, not printed with Hindu, were printed with the print group 2 subjects?

I'm just trying to get on the same page.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Not sure what your Hindu ad proves as we both know the Texas leaguers were not printed with Hindu.

Scot

The ad shows that ATC intended for them to be printed with Hindu. They included the Texas League in the advertisements, but for whatever reason they weren't printed. Still part of the same print group in my opinion.

The same thing happened with the major-league subjects. The Hindu ads stated 150 Subjects would be included, but only 102 were. The subjects that were not printed don't belong in a different print group, they just were not printed with this back.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

tim,

have to disagree. The 34 slers that were printed with hindu are tougher with pied 350 than the 14 slers that were not printed with hindu, just as the 150/350 major leaguers are tougher with pied 350 than the 350-only major leaguers. It is in fact a paradox that the 34 slers that are possible with three backs (hindu, pied 350, oms) are more difficult than the 14 slers that are only possible with two backs (pied 350, oms). The explanation for this seeming paradox is that the 14 are, like the 350-only major leaguers, much more plentiful with pied 350 and this trumps the small hindu production from which the 14 were excluded.

The 14 slers that are not possible with hindu were launched with the 350-only major leaguers and comprise a separate print group in my opinion. Not sure what your hindu ad proves as we both know the texas leaguers were not printed with hindu.

Scot

furthermore............

Originally Posted by sreader3

tim,

i'm still struggling to come to grips with your nomenclature but if by "print group 2" you mean 350-only subjects then i think so.

In essence, the 34 slers that were printed with hindu were printed with the pied 350 back in similar numbers to the 150/350 major league subjects whereas the
other 14 slers that were not printed with hindu were printed with the pied 350 back in similar numbers to the 350-only major league subjects. This, combined with the fact that hindu is a 150 series back, suggests to me that the 14 slers comprise a distinct 350-only southern league print group. This is jamie hull's discovery circa 2009 but convinced me.

A corollary is that the scarcity of the 34 slers relative to 150/350 major leaguers is attributable to the former's unavailability with the sweet caporal, sovereign and epdg brands whereas the scarcity of the remaining 14 slers relative to the 350-only major (and minor) leaguers is attributable to the former's unavailability with sweet caporal, sovereign and other brands with which 350-only major (and minor) league subjects were printed. Of course, this scarcity is offset somewhat by the old mill southern printing.

Scot

Hey Scot

Although somewhat anecdotal, the following real data supports your thesis......

The Russell collection has 22 - T206 Southern Leaguer's (SL) with OLD MILL backs. This includes 12 of the 14 No-HINDU subjects. And, only 10 of the 34 HINDU subjects.

I started in the 1980's to complete my first (521 cards) T206 set (hybrid backs). Certain SL cards were considerably tougher (Foster, Hickman, Paige, Shaughnessy, etc.),
while other SL cards were easily found in multiples (either Hart, King, Thebo, Westlake, etc.). The later subjects being in the No-HINDU group.

DITTO goes for my 2nd set (hybrid backs) of T206's (520 cards) that I completed in 2005.

In 2006, I broke up my 2nd set in order to put together an all-PIEDMONT set. I completed this challenge in 11 months. Most challenging in this undertaking was acquiring
all the SL cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs. And again, the toughest were in the group of the 34 subjects that were originally printed with the HINDU backs (my records indicate that guys like Foster, Hickman, Manion, Paige, Shaughnessy were some of the last cards I acquired).

Finally, as a dealer, I have been selling T206's since the mid-1980's; and, I've seen many collector's wantlists at the Willow Grove, Ft. Washington, and National Shows.
And, in most cases T206 collectors needed the SL subjects that were printed in the HINDU group of 34 cards to complete their T206 sets.

Scot....your analysis is right on.


T-Rex TED

[Abravefan11]

Scot - Each of the print groups, with exception to the super prints, can be broken down into additional subsets. But when looking at the sets composition, all 48 of the southern league subjects fit into a single print group. Had it not been for something unforeseen, all 48 would have been printed and distributed with Hindu backs as ATC intended. And population variances, that demonstrate subsets within a print group for the same back, is something we see throughout the set.

Johnny-Some Sovereign 460's are much easier to find than others. There is a definitive difference in the numbers between two subsets printed with that back. But the six super prints do not stand alone as being the toughest. Yes they are tough, but there are a number of other Sovereign 460's I believe are just as tough.

[sreader3]

Tim,

You and I can agree to disagree about the southern leaguer breakdown.

I don't think the 14 southern leaguers that weren't printed with Hindu were "ready for print" at the time of the summer-fall 1909 Hindu printing--and even if they were "ready for print" the fact remains that they were not printed with Hindu.

I will continue to regard these 14 as a distinct 350-only southern league print group until proof to the contrary is presented (e.g., 1909 advertising).

Scot

Footnote: What is the "something unforeseen" that you are referring to?