T206 Print Groups-A Quick Overview

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Jamie was a very cool and humble guy and extremely knowledgeable about T206. He was an asset to the hobby and I hope he returns to this board some day.

Scot

He was on the board 3 weeks ago and posted a couple months ago. Did something happen to him?

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by Leon

He was on the board 3 weeks ago and posted a couple months ago. Did something happen to him?

That's good to hear, Leon. Maybe it's me who needs to frequent the board more often.

[Abravefan11]

Scot - I'm always up for agreeing to disagree but I'll continue to make my case as long as you would like to discuss it.

All 48 southern league subjects were planned with Hindu backs. The 1909 Hindu advertisements included the Texas league in its description, but none were printed.



The important thing the print groups do is to place the right subjects, into the proper production timelines. All 48 southern league subjects began production at the same time, and were discontinued at the same time. This is what makes them a single print group.

The fact that 14 southern league subjects were absent from the printing of a certain back isn't reason enough to split them into two separate groups. Within other print groups we see many subjects printed with backs others in the same group were not.

[sreader3]

Tim,

Have to disagree. The 34 SLers that were printed with Hindu are tougher with Pied 350 than the 14 SLers that were not printed with Hindu, just as the 150/350 major leaguers are tougher with Pied 350 than the 350-only major leaguers. It is in fact a paradox that the 34 SLers that are possible with THREE backs (Hindu, Pied 350, OMS) are more difficult than the 14 SLers that are only possible with TWO backs (Pied 350, OMS). The explanation for this seeming paradox is that the 14 are, like the 350-only major leaguers, much more plentiful with Pied 350 and this trumps the small Hindu production from which the 14 were excluded.

The 14 SLers that are not possible with Hindu were launched with the 350-only major leaguers and comprise a separate print group in my opinion. Not sure what your Hindu ad proves as we both know the Texas leaguers were not printed with Hindu.

Scot

[Abravefan11]

Scot - Is it your opinion that the 14 southern league subjects, not printed with Hindu, were printed with the print group 2 subjects?

I'm just trying to get on the same page.

[sreader3]

Tim,

I'm still struggling to come to grips with your nomenclature but if by "print group 2" you mean 350-only subjects then I think so.

In essence, the 34 SLers that were printed with Hindu were printed WITH THE PIED 350 BACK in similar numbers to the 150/350 major league subjects whereas the other 14 SLers that were not printed with Hindu were printed WITH THE PIED 350 BACK in similar numbers to the 350-only major league subjects. This, combined with the fact that Hindu is a 150 series back, suggests to me that the 14 SLers comprise a distinct 350-only southern league print group. This is Jamie Hull's discovery circa 2009 but convinced me.

A corollary is that the scarcity of the 34 SLers relative to 150/350 major leaguers is attributable to the former's unavailability with Pied 150 as well as the Sweet Caporal, Sovereign and EPDG brands whereas the scarcity of the remaining 14 SLers relative to the 350-only major (and minor) leaguers is attributable to the former's unavailability with Sweet Caporal, Sovereign and other brands with which 350-only major (and minor) league subjects were printed. Of course, this scarcity is offset somewhat by the Old Mill Southern printing.

Scot

[Abravefan11]

OK, I understand what you're saying and we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think that any of the southern league subjects were extended into the print group 2 (350 Only) production. I believe based on everything I have seen that the 48 southern league subjects were printed during the production of print group 1 (150/350) as one supplemental group. I believe all 48 were discontinued prior to print group 2 (350 Only) beginning.

The variances in numbers of some subjects with a given back does not imply to me that they were printed at different times. As I stated before, we see this in other print groups with certain backs.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Not sure what your Hindu ad proves as we both know the Texas leaguers were not printed with Hindu.

Scot

The ad shows that ATC intended for them to be printed with Hindu. They included the Texas League in the advertisements, but for whatever reason they weren't printed. Still part of the same print group in my opinion.

The same thing happened with the major-league subjects. The Hindu ads stated 150 Subjects would be included, but only 102 were. The subjects that were not printed don't belong in a different print group, they just were not printed with this back.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

tim,

have to disagree. The 34 slers that were printed with hindu are tougher with pied 350 than the 14 slers that were not printed with hindu, just as the 150/350 major leaguers are tougher with pied 350 than the 350-only major leaguers. It is in fact a paradox that the 34 slers that are possible with three backs (hindu, pied 350, oms) are more difficult than the 14 slers that are only possible with two backs (pied 350, oms). The explanation for this seeming paradox is that the 14 are, like the 350-only major leaguers, much more plentiful with pied 350 and this trumps the small hindu production from which the 14 were excluded.

The 14 slers that are not possible with hindu were launched with the 350-only major leaguers and comprise a separate print group in my opinion. Not sure what your hindu ad proves as we both know the texas leaguers were not printed with hindu.

Scot

furthermore............

Originally Posted by sreader3

tim,

i'm still struggling to come to grips with your nomenclature but if by "print group 2" you mean 350-only subjects then i think so.

In essence, the 34 slers that were printed with hindu were printed with the pied 350 back in similar numbers to the 150/350 major league subjects whereas the
other 14 slers that were not printed with hindu were printed with the pied 350 back in similar numbers to the 350-only major league subjects. This, combined with the fact that hindu is a 150 series back, suggests to me that the 14 slers comprise a distinct 350-only southern league print group. This is jamie hull's discovery circa 2009 but convinced me.

A corollary is that the scarcity of the 34 slers relative to 150/350 major leaguers is attributable to the former's unavailability with the sweet caporal, sovereign and epdg brands whereas the scarcity of the remaining 14 slers relative to the 350-only major (and minor) leaguers is attributable to the former's unavailability with sweet caporal, sovereign and other brands with which 350-only major (and minor) league subjects were printed. Of course, this scarcity is offset somewhat by the old mill southern printing.

Scot

Hey Scot

Although somewhat anecdotal, the following real data supports your thesis......

The Russell collection has 22 - T206 Southern Leaguer's (SL) with OLD MILL backs. This includes 12 of the 14 No-HINDU subjects. And, only 10 of the 34 HINDU subjects.

I started in the 1980's to complete my first (521 cards) T206 set (hybrid backs). Certain SL cards were considerably tougher (Foster, Hickman, Paige, Shaughnessy, etc.),
while other SL cards were easily found in multiples (either Hart, King, Thebo, Westlake, etc.). The later subjects being in the No-HINDU group.

DITTO goes for my 2nd set (hybrid backs) of T206's (520 cards) that I completed in 2005.

In 2006, I broke up my 2nd set in order to put together an all-PIEDMONT set. I completed this challenge in 11 months. Most challenging in this undertaking was acquiring
all the SL cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs. And again, the toughest were in the group of the 34 subjects that were originally printed with the HINDU backs (my records indicate that guys like Foster, Hickman, Manion, Paige, Shaughnessy were some of the last cards I acquired).

Finally, as a dealer, I have been selling T206's since the mid-1980's; and, I've seen many collector's wantlists at the Willow Grove, Ft. Washington, and National Shows.
And, in most cases T206 collectors needed the SL subjects that were printed in the HINDU group of 34 cards to complete their T206 sets.

Scot....your analysis is right on.


T-Rex TED