Where can/do we report "fake autograph" sellers?

[travrosty]

they just dont want to make time, because selling forged autographs is seen as a victimless crime to them. its a classy crime so they dont care, its not some guy beating grandma over the head and stealing her pocketbook.

it's not hard to tell who is offering up the forgeries.

[daves_resale_shop]

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

[toyman55]

I think eBay has turned their eyes elsewhere when it comes to losing their profits. Like some of the authentication companies eBay is in business to make money not police those who list. I also see where when an autograph is sold that so many think is fake it is still subjective to it's validity. I have a Roy Campanella autograph I bought on ebay that this site gave a thumbs down to but I think is still real. I do feel as the rest of you that it is wrong for those who are blatantly forging autographs that it is a crime but I would rather have the police protecting us from harm and leaving this site to warn people when possible of fakes.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by toyman55

I think eBay has turned their eyes elsewhere when it comes to losing their profits. Like some of the authentication companies eBay is in business to make money not police those who list. I also see where when an autograph is sold that so many think is fake it is still subjective to it's validity. I have a Roy Campanella autograph I bought on ebay that this site gave a thumbs down to but I think is still real. I do feel as the rest of you that it is wrong for those who are blatantly forging autographs that it is a crime but I would rather have the police protecting us from harm and leaving this site to warn people when possible of fakes.

While I agree that local law enforcement has much bigger fish to fry then interrogating a local auctioneer for selling a forged mickey mantle 8x10, I also believe that it is incumbent upon law enforcement to investigate and stop those people who are forging on a massive scale (or peddling forgeries on a massive scale)... After all its not pennies that we are talking about its millions and millions of dollars... What's the difference between a skilled forger who manufacturers 1000 ruth autograph's sells them at $1000 per and the wall street tycoon who decides to steal $1,000,000 from a client in a ponzi scheme... not much I would say... theft is theft.

As for ebay... I do believe they are in business to make money & not police listers (which they do-just not always effectively), it is also in their best interest to have a sound reputation and protect their buyers... as I mentioned before, if you are in business for the long haul and not a quick buck it doesn't make sense to burn customers and lose future business...

here's one the closed last night... suspect at best and a bargain if real...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261155815188...84.m1436.l2649

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

it's not hard to tell who is offering up the forgeries.

For you, maybe, but it's not about "telling," it's about proving before a judge and jury, which is a lot harder than many here seem to want to believe.

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

While I agree that local law enforcement has much bigger fish to fry then interrogating a local auctioneer for selling a forged mickey mantle 8x10, I also believe that it is incumbent upon law enforcement to investigate and stop those people who are forging on a massive scale (or peddling forgeries on a massive scale)... After all its not pennies that we are talking about its millions and millions of dollars... What's the difference between a skilled forger who manufacturers 1000 ruth autograph's sells them at $1000 per and the wall street tycoon who decides to steal $1,000,000 from a client in a ponzi scheme... not much I would say... theft is theft.

Agreed on all points, but what is the first step here, from a practical point of view? Local law enforcement needs actual, tangible, and irrefutible proof of something before taking prosecutorial steps. In these cases, that is very hard to gather.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

For you, maybe, but it's not about "telling," it's about proving before a judge and jury, which is a lot harder than many here seem to want to believe.



Agreed on all points, but what is the first step here, from a practical point of view? Local law enforcement needs actual, tangible, and irrefutible proof of something before taking prosecutorial steps. In these cases, that is very hard to gather.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-ne...d-b-ar-251553/

Law enforcement needs a complaint to investigate. As more than one individual indicated (by the tone of their voice and lack of concern), if I was not "the injured party" there was nothing they could do. When I asked if I had to purchase a forgery in order to make a complaint, I was told by one "That's silly. If you know that is fraudulent, and you purchased it anyway, what would your complaint be?" A Catch-22 that covers either ignorance or laziness.

Yet a pawn shop was able to get 19 agencies involved.

[Mr. Zipper]

Most of these local auction houses are in small towns. So think about the logistics of prosecuting this...

The local sheriff is going to arrest the auctioneer. Then what?

The local prosecutor -- probably a district attorney with a few, if any, ADAS, is going to make a case how? Fly in high priced experts to testify the signatures are bad. Then the defense is going to claim "I didn't know... someone consigned them."

Case over. Auctioneer is acquitted.

And the local DA just spent half of his annual budget flying in experts on a losing case.

Not gonna happen.

Education of buyers, and public shaming of exposed auction houses is the only thing that will work in my opinion.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Deertick

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-ne...d-b-ar-251553/

Law enforcement needs a complaint to investigate. As more than one individual indicated (by the tone of their voice and lack of concern), if I was not "the injured party" there was nothing they could do. When I asked if I had to purchase a forgery in order to make a complaint, I was told by one "That's silly. If you know that is fraudulent, and you purchased it anyway, what would your complaint be?" A Catch-22 that covers either ignorance or laziness.

Yet a pawn shop was able to get 19 agencies involved.

This is a great and hopeful story, but it is quite different from the cases of local auction houses discussed here for many reasons. I would be interested to know how much of the prosecution in this case was driven by PSA's cert being forged. That one is an easy one to prove.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

If an item with a banned COA is reported by a member of the EMR team it will be removed.
Post those items here on Net54.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If an item with a banned COA is reported by a member of the EMR team it will be removed.
Post those items here on Net54.

What exactly is he EMR Team?

[travrosty]

its a team that can report to ebay and only get items removed that are fake that are not psa or jsa.

if it is a fake and has a psa or jsa sticker, it stays on ebay, like the wife signed sonny liston that has been reported numerous times, by non emr and emr members alike, but it still up, and the oscar bonavena fake autograph with psa authentication also.

so emr is really limited in the number of autographs it can get removed by ebay because there is a protection clause that lets psa and jsa items stay up.

I was indrectly offered to get emr status and declined because of this protectionism. I said I would be happy to help get the fake boxing off of ebay, let's start with the psa and jsa ones. They wanted all the non-authenticated ones reported first. Yeah right. I gave them the psa and jsa fakes first, non-authenticated fakes to come later once those got pulled first. They didn't pull any psa or jsa fake boxing items off of ebay, even with plenty of proof, exemplars. So I didn't report the non-authenticated fakes because why play their game and participate in protectionism? If they want help they can help by pulling ALL the fakes off of ebay, not just certian ones.

Not until all fakes are treated equally will EMR reporting do any good in combating fakes on ebay or anywhere else. i wonder how many psa or jsa consultants or psa and jsa authenticators are emr's themselves?

[daves_resale_shop]

seems like a pretty fishy system if you ask me..

my first report to the emr team:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/jb3sportsout...p2047675.l2562

please get this rubish removed.

Thanks for your explanation Travis,
Dave

Originally Posted by travrosty

its a team that can report to ebay and only get items removed that are fake that are not psa or jsa.

if it is a fake and has a psa or jsa sticker, it stays on ebay, like the wife signed sonny liston that has been reported numerous times, by non emr and emr members alike, but it still up, and the oscar bonavena fake autograph with psa authentication also.

so emr is really limited in the number of autographs it can get removed by ebay because there is a protection clause that lets psa and jsa items stay up.

I was indrectly offered to get emr status and declined because of this protectionism. I said I would be happy to help get the fake boxing off of ebay, let's start with the psa and jsa ones. They wanted all the non-authenticated ones reported first. Yeah right. I gave them the psa and jsa fakes first, non-authenticated fakes to come later once those got pulled first. They didn't pull any psa or jsa fake boxing items off of ebay, even with plenty of proof, exemplars. So I didn't report the non-authenticated fakes because why play their game and participate in protectionism? If they want help they can help by pulling ALL the fakes off of ebay, not just certian ones.

Not until all fakes are treated equally will EMR reporting do any good in combating fakes on ebay or anywhere else. i wonder how many psa or jsa consultants or psa and jsa authenticators are emr's themselves?

[travrosty]

its a very fishy system.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

seems like a pretty fishy system if you ask me..

my first report to the emr team:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/jb3sportsout...p2047675.l2562

please get this rubish removed.

Thanks for your explanation Travis,
Dave

Gone.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

Auctions with COAs on Ebay's Banned COA list will be removed if reported.