Where can/do we report "fake autograph" sellers?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

theft is theft. they can make time. they dont even have to do any investigating. we know who many forgers and crooked sellers are. all they have to do is go bust them. no one is holding their breath.

This is easy to say, but it is a lot harder to build enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In the case of a small auction house selling a bad Mantle auto, who would you arrest and what exactly would you charge them with? My brother is a district attorney and he cringes at the thought.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

In the case of a small auction house selling a bad Mantle auto, who would you arrest and what exactly would you charge them with? My brother is a district attorney and he cringes at the thought.

I don't know. Who do they charge when they are sell fake Gucci bags or Rolex watches? What do they charge when someone is selling fake gold or diamonds? Is some fraud /theft acceptable and some not? Or is it determined by the stature of the complainant?

By some measure, it is more agreeable to get scammed with a fake Coach purse. At least it is still functional as a purse. A forged photo is a photo that has been defaced and is now virtually worthless.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I don't know. Who do they charge when they are sell fake Gucci bags or Rolex watches? What do they charge when someone is selling fake gold or diamonds? Is some fraud /theft acceptable and some not? Or is it determined by the stature of the complainant?

By some measure, it is more agreeable to get scammed with a fake Coach purse. At least it is still functional as a purse. A forged photo is a photo that has been defaced and is now virtually worthless.

The thing is, forgery is a crime, but the sellers of these items are not the forgers. There is usually a longer chain of custody. It is of course illegal to fraudulently sell counterfeit goods, but it is a LOT harder to prove the fact with autographs than it is with other material goods (despite what some here state as gospel fact, most everything thrown around here is clearly opinion only). It is therefore also extremely difficult to prove criminal intent on anybody's part. It sucks, but 99.9% of these cases are not worth a prosecutor's time because the required proof is near impossible to provide.

[travrosty]

they just dont want to make time, because selling forged autographs is seen as a victimless crime to them. its a classy crime so they dont care, its not some guy beating grandma over the head and stealing her pocketbook.

it's not hard to tell who is offering up the forgeries.

[daves_resale_shop]

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

[toyman55]

I think eBay has turned their eyes elsewhere when it comes to losing their profits. Like some of the authentication companies eBay is in business to make money not police those who list. I also see where when an autograph is sold that so many think is fake it is still subjective to it's validity. I have a Roy Campanella autograph I bought on ebay that this site gave a thumbs down to but I think is still real. I do feel as the rest of you that it is wrong for those who are blatantly forging autographs that it is a crime but I would rather have the police protecting us from harm and leaving this site to warn people when possible of fakes.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by toyman55

I think eBay has turned their eyes elsewhere when it comes to losing their profits. Like some of the authentication companies eBay is in business to make money not police those who list. I also see where when an autograph is sold that so many think is fake it is still subjective to it's validity. I have a Roy Campanella autograph I bought on ebay that this site gave a thumbs down to but I think is still real. I do feel as the rest of you that it is wrong for those who are blatantly forging autographs that it is a crime but I would rather have the police protecting us from harm and leaving this site to warn people when possible of fakes.

While I agree that local law enforcement has much bigger fish to fry then interrogating a local auctioneer for selling a forged mickey mantle 8x10, I also believe that it is incumbent upon law enforcement to investigate and stop those people who are forging on a massive scale (or peddling forgeries on a massive scale)... After all its not pennies that we are talking about its millions and millions of dollars... What's the difference between a skilled forger who manufacturers 1000 ruth autograph's sells them at $1000 per and the wall street tycoon who decides to steal $1,000,000 from a client in a ponzi scheme... not much I would say... theft is theft.

As for ebay... I do believe they are in business to make money & not police listers (which they do-just not always effectively), it is also in their best interest to have a sound reputation and protect their buyers... as I mentioned before, if you are in business for the long haul and not a quick buck it doesn't make sense to burn customers and lose future business...

here's one the closed last night... suspect at best and a bargain if real...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261155815188...84.m1436.l2649

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

If an item with a banned COA is reported by a member of the EMR team it will be removed.
Post those items here on Net54.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If an item with a banned COA is reported by a member of the EMR team it will be removed.
Post those items here on Net54.

What exactly is he EMR Team?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I frequent small local antique auctions... I would say that at least once a month there will be 5-7 FLA forgeries up for sale... Now there are typically a few bidders in the crowd who know better than to bid, there are a ton who have no clue... Auctions typically sell based on the "as is-no guarantees principal"... To go on with my rant... you typically see forged mantle, williams, and dimmaggio 8x10's fall in the 70-90 range... Some of the people buying simply float the rubbish downstream, others invest in authentication and realize they got stung...

Is it really worth it to the auction houses to make $40 bucks on a lot, only to risk losing that one customer who could potentially give you residual piece week in week out???

Also: Ebay... They have a banned authenticators list, yet I still see items with these LOA's??? I have reported several of these items only to see the auctions close & unsuspecting buyers get hosed...

Just last night there was a "George H. Ruth" cut that went for $383, and a piece (1924 american association scorecard) signed by COBB, GC ALEXANDER, WALTER JOHNSON, HARRY HEILMANN, & AL SIMMONS for $1155... Both items were authenticated by someone on the banned authenticators list and both sold...

This I find to be very discouraging

What is ebay doing to enforce their own rules???

Auctions with COAs on Ebay's Banned COA list will be removed if reported.

[markf31]

Back to the direct question posed in the OP. You can report the dealing and selling of suspected fake and forged autographs to a number of entities.

First I would confront the business who is selling the suspected fakes and forgeries. Ask if they’re aware the autographs are forgeries or possible forgeries. If they disagree with your opinion, ask if they’re willing to stand behind their own claim to the legitimacy of the autographs in question. Now if you yourself are 100% certain they are selling forgeries, and if it’s a local business owner, you can always leverage pressure on the owner yourself. These steps can only be taken if you’re 100% certain, as the business can always come back at you with a libel/slander suite. You can write open letters in your local newspaper about the business or auction house as well.

Steps to report the company/business can include:
You can always start with your local police department
Write a letter to your local District Attorney and ADA
Write a letter/contact your local and state elected officials
Contact local attorneys who specialize in consumer rights
Contact your local NACA office (National Association of Consumer Advocates)
Contact the Better Business Bureau (BBB)
Contact other local consumer protection agencies
Sometimes the business may be part of small business associations, contact these associations as well with your concerns

Most of the above referenced contacts can be utilized if the potention seller if not local to you as well.

Some due diligence, even extreme due diligence, is needed on your part to provide and site clear examples and very concise and specific information when reporting the business in question. In my experience, the more concise your report is, the more detailed and specific your background information is then the more serious that the above mentioned entities will take and investigate your complaint. And don’t shy away from persistence, not by reporting the same set of facts and instances over and over, but showing and proving that the business in question continually over a period of time engages in the selling of forged autographs. And if you can find fellow collectors in your local area who can also vouch for your reports, and are also willing to join the fight with you, and add their names to the complaints, well that only lends more credability to your complaint.

The process isn't always easy, it can be very time consuming, and it can take years before any results are realized. I believe this puts a lot of people off from reporting even the possability of someone selling forgeries. It takes a lot more than simply going to the police station, filling a report, pointing a finger and screaming that someone is possibly selling forged autographs.