This is the problem with grading...

[botn]

Greg,

Not sure if you were asking me but I do not mind answering the question but my post was about my perspective as a buyer. I do not consign much of my inventory as I sell most of it myself on eBay or through direct sales. On eBay I use higher opening bids on cards I am concerned may not get to a level where I would be comfortable letting them go. Or I stick them in my store for all of you to ignore and use the Or Best Offer option. If those items do not sell after a period of time I either consign them to larger auction houses or I list them at 1 cent and hold my breath. In either case I am typically let down with the results.

The auction format, with all of its flaws, has become the most successful method for transacting business in this hobby. Buyers are empowered and feel they get to set their own price and control the transaction by setting the price they are willing to pay. This is not typical of how most retail business is conducted.

I do not believe people should have to pay the maximum they are willing to pay for an item but I think some buyers' objectives with protective bids or hidden reserves has to do with the threat it poses to a purely natural auction process of interested buyer versus interested buyer.

Greg

[Clutch-Hitter]

Greg, thanks and sorry I left Peter's name out as the primary person to which my question was directed. I forgot to mention starting the auction at a higher price in addition to buy it now and the reserve feature, and that I too hold my breath starting at .99 or .01.

If I'm understanding right, the term Hidden reserve is being used in place of shill bid and this is different than a maximum hidden reserve, both of which are known only by the seller. These are based on subjective percentages of what the seller expects the card to sell for and differentiated by whether or not the seller has knowledge of the highest bid.

So what happens when your competitor, that is the person bidding against you for your card, loses to you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If a consignor wins his own card, then he tries to sell it again, or in a different format, or someplace else. This happens constantly, as many threads noting how soon after auctions cards appear someplace else attest to. It's just a fact of life -- people aren't giving cards away, for the most part. The good news about ebay is that nobody can see your snipe.

[veloce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If a consignor wins his own card, then he tries to sell it again, or in a different format, or someplace else. This happens constantly, as many threads noting how soon after auctions cards appear someplace else attest to. It's just a fact of life -- people aren't giving cards away, for the most part. The good news about ebay is that nobody can see your snipe.

The bad news about ebay is, although you may not be able to see the snipe, that doesn't mean you can't shill a sniper on ebay. I had a buyer on ebay asking about shipping because he intended to bid on several of my auctions. As I was watching them sell, it became obvious where his snipes were set and I could have shilled him and made more on those cards. Similarly as a buyer, I have bid on several related auctions only to get outbid last minute by the same guy every time. I would not be surprised if some large volume sellers used the bid information on the first few items to predict bidding on future items. I think in many instances they could make a lot more money shilling them.

~R1ck St. Ephen

[skelly]

I'm going to go back to the beginning of the thread. Personally I never really understood/cared about Gem mint 10's, etc until now... Let me explain. As a collector, I actually usually look for vg-ex cards that are crease free, just look ok, etc... Not looking to spend a ton of money on cards, and not expecting to ever sell them for a lot.
This all changed when I saw a PSA 10 Jim Rice 1976 on ebay. I remember when I was in like 5th grade my friends older brother said we could have a few baseballs cards if we helped him with a clean-up project he had around the house. Anyway one of the cards I got was the Rice. This was back in the mid eighties and 76 was certainly "vintage" to me back then. I thought it was the coolest card ever with the trophy on it, etc...
My dilemma is this. The Art Shell thing is just crazy. It's an eight all the way in my opinion. Slight marks on the black lines, some missing color spots on the ribbon. I mean its a heck of a card, but not a "10" The grading thing is in jeopardy if people start to fear that cards can earn a 10 if they don't deserve to. If buyers lose confidence it will be a big problem. To be quite frank, the Art Shell going from an 8 to a 10 is perhaps the most upsetting thing I've ever seen in the hobby. Its the only thing holding me back from buying the Rice

[Matthew H]

I'm not sure how anyone one here could think its ok to trick a bidder into paying their BIN price with a fake auction bid. IMO that's terrible. Winning an honest auction provides a small piece of mind that there was at least one other guy willing to pay close to what you were willing to pay, somewhat solidifying that you paid what the card is currently worth.

If a false bid is really the same as setting a reserve, then please just set a reserve. I bid differently in auctions with a reserve, I know others here do too, which is likely why some people decide to hide there reserve with a shill.

[brob28]

[QUOTE=Matthew H;1028379]I'm not sure how anyone one here could think its ok to trick a bidder into paying their BIN price with a fake auction bid. IMO that's terrible. Winning an honest auction provides a small piece of mind that there was at least one other guy willing to pay close to what you were willing to pay, somewhat solidifying that you paid what the card is currently worth.

I can't agree more. I think those who are not bothered by shilling and hidden reserves have an extreme confidence that they know the market value of the cards they bid on and therefore will not overpay no matter. But I ask the question: how do they get their data to come up with their determination of value? If they use any past auction results then the data they base their prices on may be skewed by shilling.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by skelly

I'm going to go back to the beginning of the thread. Personally I never really understood/cared about Gem mint 10's, etc until now... Let me explain. As a collector, I actually usually look for vg-ex cards that are crease free, just look ok, etc... Not looking to spend a ton of money on cards, and not expecting to ever sell them for a lot.
This all changed when I saw a PSA 10 Jim Rice 1976 on ebay. I remember when I was in like 5th grade my friends older brother said we could have a few baseballs cards if we helped him with a clean-up project he had around the house. Anyway one of the cards I got was the Rice. This was back in the mid eighties and 76 was certainly "vintage" to me back then. I thought it was the coolest card ever with the trophy on it, etc...
My dilemma is this. The Art Shell thing is just crazy. It's an eight all the way in my opinion. Slight marks on the black lines, some missing color spots on the ribbon. I mean its a heck of a card, but not a "10" The grading thing is in jeopardy if people start to fear that cards can earn a 10 if they don't deserve to. If buyers lose confidence it will be a big problem. To be quite frank, the Art Shell going from an 8 to a 10 is perhaps the most upsetting thing I've ever seen in the hobby. Its the only thing holding me back from buying the Rice

I agree that the "vagaries" of the grading exposed on this thread are a serious issue and warrant a public explanation by the principals responsible. They've already "sanitized" their own message baord by deleting at least 4 threads about the topic.

As for the seller I noticed he posted the following on this thread. Why he buried this response in an unrelated thread and didn't start one to put all collectors at ease is beyond me:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...22&STARTPAGE=3

CU Board members,
I welcome you or anyone to come to my office with a polygraph and video....hopefully, my replies below will shed light on the recent accusations...

this is how I would reply to the following questions:

did I sell a 73 psa art shell psa 8 with a unique amoeba like PD on the reverse ? ans: yes
did I ever look or realize who the winner of the card was after the auction closed ? ans: no
did I tip off to anyone that this card was perhaps special and have potential to bump ? ans: no
was involved in cracking out the card in any fashion and resubmitting it to psa > ans: no
did I have some special profit deal above my 5% for selling the card ? ans: no
did I sell the card once bumped to a psa 10 with the same unique amoeba reverse ? ans: yes
did I prompt/initiate/instruct any shill bidding on this card ? no, I had no knowledge of who was bidding on the card...
have I taken any action against that bidders ID since it was shown to me that a safely bid was placed ? yes, i have blocked that ID....
why did they grade the card a psa 8 and then a psa 10 ? this is a question for psa...we don't grade them, we just sell them...

gentleman , my role in the industry is very clear....we move inventory....we have an active consignor pool of over 400 consignors....
I currently don't have an account submitting cards to psa....I spend the lion share my time busy with consignments and buying large lots from auction houses and breaking up the lots....

we do not have any special arrangement with anyone who buys from our consignments, anyone is welcome to come to my office to view inventory like a major auction house
and I will answer questions via any auction to the best of my ability....if someone wins a cards and decides to review it for a higher grade or cracks it out to resubmit, this is their own doing
and we have NOTHING to do with it - we aren't partners with any buyers on item they win from probstein123 auctions - we take our 5% and thats it....as ebays largest seller ,
we do auction loads of cards that fall in this category, ie: old label psa 8's , well centered , that have never been reviewed before...if a dealer or collector wins these cards and gets some sort of bump , its without knowledge and
participation from probstein123....
if psa/sgc or beckett holders a card we will sell it....if its raw and we think the card has been trimmed or altered in some way , we state this ( see our prior auctions ) ...

thanks
rick

[CMIZ5290]

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?