This is the problem with grading...

[Peter_Spaeth]

If a consignor wins his own card, then he tries to sell it again, or in a different format, or someplace else. This happens constantly, as many threads noting how soon after auctions cards appear someplace else attest to. It's just a fact of life -- people aren't giving cards away, for the most part. The good news about ebay is that nobody can see your snipe.

[veloce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If a consignor wins his own card, then he tries to sell it again, or in a different format, or someplace else. This happens constantly, as many threads noting how soon after auctions cards appear someplace else attest to. It's just a fact of life -- people aren't giving cards away, for the most part. The good news about ebay is that nobody can see your snipe.

The bad news about ebay is, although you may not be able to see the snipe, that doesn't mean you can't shill a sniper on ebay. I had a buyer on ebay asking about shipping because he intended to bid on several of my auctions. As I was watching them sell, it became obvious where his snipes were set and I could have shilled him and made more on those cards. Similarly as a buyer, I have bid on several related auctions only to get outbid last minute by the same guy every time. I would not be surprised if some large volume sellers used the bid information on the first few items to predict bidding on future items. I think in many instances they could make a lot more money shilling them.

~R1ck St. Ephen

[skelly]

I'm going to go back to the beginning of the thread. Personally I never really understood/cared about Gem mint 10's, etc until now... Let me explain. As a collector, I actually usually look for vg-ex cards that are crease free, just look ok, etc... Not looking to spend a ton of money on cards, and not expecting to ever sell them for a lot.
This all changed when I saw a PSA 10 Jim Rice 1976 on ebay. I remember when I was in like 5th grade my friends older brother said we could have a few baseballs cards if we helped him with a clean-up project he had around the house. Anyway one of the cards I got was the Rice. This was back in the mid eighties and 76 was certainly "vintage" to me back then. I thought it was the coolest card ever with the trophy on it, etc...
My dilemma is this. The Art Shell thing is just crazy. It's an eight all the way in my opinion. Slight marks on the black lines, some missing color spots on the ribbon. I mean its a heck of a card, but not a "10" The grading thing is in jeopardy if people start to fear that cards can earn a 10 if they don't deserve to. If buyers lose confidence it will be a big problem. To be quite frank, the Art Shell going from an 8 to a 10 is perhaps the most upsetting thing I've ever seen in the hobby. Its the only thing holding me back from buying the Rice

[Matthew H]

I'm not sure how anyone one here could think its ok to trick a bidder into paying their BIN price with a fake auction bid. IMO that's terrible. Winning an honest auction provides a small piece of mind that there was at least one other guy willing to pay close to what you were willing to pay, somewhat solidifying that you paid what the card is currently worth.

If a false bid is really the same as setting a reserve, then please just set a reserve. I bid differently in auctions with a reserve, I know others here do too, which is likely why some people decide to hide there reserve with a shill.

[brob28]

[QUOTE=Matthew H;1028379]I'm not sure how anyone one here could think its ok to trick a bidder into paying their BIN price with a fake auction bid. IMO that's terrible. Winning an honest auction provides a small piece of mind that there was at least one other guy willing to pay close to what you were willing to pay, somewhat solidifying that you paid what the card is currently worth.

I can't agree more. I think those who are not bothered by shilling and hidden reserves have an extreme confidence that they know the market value of the cards they bid on and therefore will not overpay no matter. But I ask the question: how do they get their data to come up with their determination of value? If they use any past auction results then the data they base their prices on may be skewed by shilling.

[Julian Wells]

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[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by julian wells

do some research on the seller listed at the beginning of this thread. It amazes me how similar items listed on ebay go for much less than his items...and i would never let him know you are interested in certain items! The prices easily double and triple from that point forward. Just look at the hundreds of items he has listed for years that haven't sold. He'll squeeze every penny he can from you! It's not all consignments...he buys and sells, too.

Caveat emptor...i don't even bother looking at his auctions (even if the coincidences are "innocent")

how many times have you gone to the car dealership for a $25 oil change and you walk out with $800 in "repairs"?

Daniel- no offense, but do you know anything about what you are talking about? I assume you are talking about probstein. If not, please forgive me. What about these huge sellers on ebay with stupid buy it now prices that are 3 times worth their value, some of whom are praised by some of these people on the net54 board!! They constantly run the same stale auctions over and over on ebay, that have been posted since moby dick was a minnow, trying to ream the next victim! Now I must ask, How does he "squeeze every penny out of you? Is there a gun to your head while you are bidding? Please, for god's sake, if you don't know what you are talking about, stay out of the witch hunt, this guy sells thousands of cards. Priorities are way out of wack on this discussion! Way out of wack......

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by skelly

I'm going to go back to the beginning of the thread. Personally I never really understood/cared about Gem mint 10's, etc until now... Let me explain. As a collector, I actually usually look for vg-ex cards that are crease free, just look ok, etc... Not looking to spend a ton of money on cards, and not expecting to ever sell them for a lot.
This all changed when I saw a PSA 10 Jim Rice 1976 on ebay. I remember when I was in like 5th grade my friends older brother said we could have a few baseballs cards if we helped him with a clean-up project he had around the house. Anyway one of the cards I got was the Rice. This was back in the mid eighties and 76 was certainly "vintage" to me back then. I thought it was the coolest card ever with the trophy on it, etc...
My dilemma is this. The Art Shell thing is just crazy. It's an eight all the way in my opinion. Slight marks on the black lines, some missing color spots on the ribbon. I mean its a heck of a card, but not a "10" The grading thing is in jeopardy if people start to fear that cards can earn a 10 if they don't deserve to. If buyers lose confidence it will be a big problem. To be quite frank, the Art Shell going from an 8 to a 10 is perhaps the most upsetting thing I've ever seen in the hobby. Its the only thing holding me back from buying the Rice

I agree that the "vagaries" of the grading exposed on this thread are a serious issue and warrant a public explanation by the principals responsible. They've already "sanitized" their own message baord by deleting at least 4 threads about the topic.

As for the seller I noticed he posted the following on this thread. Why he buried this response in an unrelated thread and didn't start one to put all collectors at ease is beyond me:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...22&STARTPAGE=3

CU Board members,
I welcome you or anyone to come to my office with a polygraph and video....hopefully, my replies below will shed light on the recent accusations...

this is how I would reply to the following questions:

did I sell a 73 psa art shell psa 8 with a unique amoeba like PD on the reverse ? ans: yes
did I ever look or realize who the winner of the card was after the auction closed ? ans: no
did I tip off to anyone that this card was perhaps special and have potential to bump ? ans: no
was involved in cracking out the card in any fashion and resubmitting it to psa > ans: no
did I have some special profit deal above my 5% for selling the card ? ans: no
did I sell the card once bumped to a psa 10 with the same unique amoeba reverse ? ans: yes
did I prompt/initiate/instruct any shill bidding on this card ? no, I had no knowledge of who was bidding on the card...
have I taken any action against that bidders ID since it was shown to me that a safely bid was placed ? yes, i have blocked that ID....
why did they grade the card a psa 8 and then a psa 10 ? this is a question for psa...we don't grade them, we just sell them...

gentleman , my role in the industry is very clear....we move inventory....we have an active consignor pool of over 400 consignors....
I currently don't have an account submitting cards to psa....I spend the lion share my time busy with consignments and buying large lots from auction houses and breaking up the lots....

we do not have any special arrangement with anyone who buys from our consignments, anyone is welcome to come to my office to view inventory like a major auction house
and I will answer questions via any auction to the best of my ability....if someone wins a cards and decides to review it for a higher grade or cracks it out to resubmit, this is their own doing
and we have NOTHING to do with it - we aren't partners with any buyers on item they win from probstein123 auctions - we take our 5% and thats it....as ebays largest seller ,
we do auction loads of cards that fall in this category, ie: old label psa 8's , well centered , that have never been reviewed before...if a dealer or collector wins these cards and gets some sort of bump , its without knowledge and
participation from probstein123....
if psa/sgc or beckett holders a card we will sell it....if its raw and we think the card has been trimmed or altered in some way , we state this ( see our prior auctions ) ...

thanks
rick

[CMIZ5290]

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?

How so?

[nolemmings]

have I taken any action against that bidders ID since it was shown to me that a safely bid was placed ? yes, i have blocked that ID....

I still think that is insufficient--refuse his consignments. Sounds like he has enough above board consignors that he doesn't need to be affiliated or connected in any way to a shiller.

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?

Kevin I'm sorry but it really sounds as though you have a vested intrest in Probstein123. Rather than ignore some of these people saying stuff you are quick on the trigger to jump at his defense when Rick himself has not even bothered to address the board about an ongoing thread against him and his consigner. I havent bid with him in yrs because I felt some auctions were inflated. Proof enough for me was the same 3 cards were up as BIN's 2-3 weeks later by him. Maybe the buyer backed out and he figured he could resell at 20% higher than the 25% higher they sold at already. Just my $.02 since I can't prove either scenario to be the reason so I just stay away.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by pup6913

kevin i'm sorry but it really sounds as though you have a vested intrest in probstein123. Rather than ignore some of these people saying stuff you are quick on the trigger to jump at his defense when rick himself has not even bothered to address the board about an ongoing thread against him and his consigner. I havent bid with him in yrs because i felt some auctions were inflated. Proof enough for me was the same 3 cards were up as bin's 2-3 weeks later by him. Maybe the buyer backed out and he figured he could resell at 20% higher than the 25% higher they sold at already. Just my $.02 since i can't prove either scenario to be the reason so i just stay away.

first of all, i have bought cards from this guy for many years with no issues (with no vested interest). I have bought many, many t206s from him that were lower than current vcp prices. But, having said all that, this thread has been going on for over 5 days!! I'm sure if there is any concern on rick's part, he will address it. He's too good a business man not to. I just wish someone would put a stake in the heart of this thread. Also, even if there is an assumption that there is some truth to some of the accusations, are you going to honestly tell me that this is not constantly going on in the hobby to a great extent?