This is the problem with grading...

[mark evans]

It seems to me that we need to distinguish between shilling where the auction house is complicit and not. As to the former, hopefully the Mastro prosecution will put the fear of God in those who would otherwise engage in the practice. [If not, and given the limited resources of law enforcement, I once suggested adoption of a hobby code of ethics to be enforced by a sort of inspector general to address shilling and other issues. This proposal was rejected as unworkable by pretty much everyone who commented. Maybe so, I don't know.]

As to shilling by a consignor or his confederates, this strikes me as more difficult to prohibit. I am inclined to agree with Peter that so long as the winning bidder pays the commission, that's the best that can be expected.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Very nice, love it !

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, I was thinking more of a situation where the FACT of a reserve is hidden in addition to the amount.

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

[buymycards]

Here is the latest at the CU board.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=864721

It will probably be removed in a few minutes.

[albrshbr]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

That's convenient!

How often does that happen over at the CU board?

Unfortunately, it happens way too often over there. Any thread that criticizes PSA or any of their larger submitters (4 sharp corners) seem to go "poof".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

I suspect auctions have seen shenanigans since the first bushel of wheat was auctioned in the Agora.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Do they need an attorney?
There's a bully they should see.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Great stuff! Dr. Suess would be proud!

I'm revising my tongue-twister:

"Sally sells shilled sham Shells by the seashore."

[calvindog]

Come one, come all.

Bullies need expensive cards too.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Here is the latest at the CU board.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=864721

It will probably be removed in a few minutes.

No doubt it will, but it is a bit refreshing to see that even the most ardent PSA apologists are finally seeing the light - even to the point of becoming an official member of the PSA Persona Non Grata Club - like me. I used to post over there for 8 years until I was finally banned. I think Kevin Saucier said it best, "You're nobody until you've been banned from the PSA Message Board".

Many years ago Joe Orlando made a statement on that message board that caused an uproar by stating that the PSA message board readership comprised of only 1% of the PSA collectors and whatever was posted on the board really didn't carry much weight regarding how PSA runs their business.

So the conclusion I draw from that is that it appears that alienating 1% of your customer base makes better business-sense than fixing all the problems that the remaining 99% doesn't have a clue about.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

Very interesting Steve. I spoke with a guy who works for a very large car dealership out here that buys and sells used cars awhile back. The used cars they sell are very nice, in fact, they almost all look new.

I asked him why that was- he said they do buy cars that they don't put on the lot, if they don't quite meet their standards (dings, too many miles, etc.)-he said they send those cars off to be auctioned (to other used car dealers mostly, but also open to the public).

I asked him how they guarantee that they won't lose money, and he said they start the bid at what they paid for the car. I asked "what if the highest bid is only the first bid-what you paid for the car?" and he said that even if that happens on every car that they still make money off of the fees to enter the auction and the fees to bid....so even if every car only sold for what they paid for it, they still make decent money from the fees.

Back on topic (sorry)....so the CU board wipes out whole threads? Wow.

Sincerely, Clayton

[drc]

My experience is the loyal PSA collector have the same types of questions as others, it's just they're not always allowed to talk about them on that board.

I've also seen collectors who assume PSA is always 100% accurate.

[Tobacco&Gum]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

so the CU board wipes out whole threads? Wow.

Not only does CU wipe out threads, they'll wipe out members for suggesting that perhaps some submitters recieve leeway or special treatment on grades.

If you even mention 4 Sharp Corners or Rick P or some others in a negative light you run the risk of being banned.

I would imagine that the CU boards are a lot like what message boards must have been like in the former Soviet Union.

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by drc

I've also seen collectors who assume PSA is always 100% accurate.

If PSA is always 100% accurate, then there would never be a cause to resubmit for a bump - they always get it right the first time.

[mark evans]

When I learn that CU deletes threads (and bans members?) for criticizing PSA, I'm glad to be a member of a board where the freedom of speech is alive and well.

[john.clowes]

There is an old customer service adage that for every person who complains there are 99 others who feel the same way but rather than complain they stop doing business. Probably applies here.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by mark evans

When I learn that CU deletes threads (and bans members?) for criticizing PSA, I'm glad to be a member of a board where the freedom of speech is alive and well.

The CU message board is run by CU and naturally doesn't want any negative talk posted about their product.
No different if you went to a restaurant sat down and complained that the food sucks.
They will ask you to leave.

Naturally on a board like N54 which isn't run by PSA, SGC, Beckett, GAI etc...
You can speak your piece and get your message across.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

The CU message board is run by CU and naturally doesn't want any negative talk posted about their product.
No different if you went to a restaurant sat down and complained that the food sucks.
They will ask you to leave.

Naturally on a board like N54 which isn't run by PSA, SGC, Beckett, GAI etc...
You can speak your piece and get your message across.

Not to belabor the point, but I suspect that both CU, as well as most restaurants, can benefit from constructive criticism. I realize that when a business permits constructive criticism it can then become difficult to deal with outrageous allegations.

[Jay Wolt]

Mark I don't disagree, just stating that here on N54 the give & take can go on about a grading company, a dealer or anything related to the hobby.
Moreso then an avenue where the company that has criticisms levied against them is the sponsor of the site.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Tobacco&Gum

Not only does CU wipe out threads, they'll wipe out members for suggesting that perhaps some submitters recieve leeway or special treatment on grades.

If you even mention 4 Sharp Corners or Rick P or some others in a negative light you run the risk of being banned.

I would imagine that the CU boards are a lot like what message boards must have been like in the former Soviet Union.

Thanks James- good to know.

That's one of the (many) great things about Net54, is that you can talk about controversial issues that are going on in the hobby. I've never once seen a thread get wiped out here.

And, your last comment had me rolling

Sincerely, Clayton

[bh3443]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

The CU message board is run by CU and naturally doesn't want any negative talk posted about their product.
No different if you went to a restaurant sat down and complained that the food sucks.
They will ask you to leave.

Naturally on a board like N54 which isn't run by PSA, SGC, Beckett, GAI etc...
You can speak your piece and get your message across.

Hi Jay,
Good point, my friend! I still open new wax, and I use Blowout Cards forum to trade or buy the new Red Sox cards which I'm "obsessed with,lol".
I did not read their rules, shame on me, and I listed a wax box for sale. Well, they ripped my post down in 2 seconds and I then read the rules!

To the larger picture on this thread, when I first started to use ebay, I bought something from Probstien123 and I was impressed with his business. The sheer volume was amazing to me.
Well, right after I paid for my lot, I got a very pleasant phone call from Rick, who it turns out used to live near me here in the suburbs of Boston, and he attended my shows years earlier. We had a great chat (as you know, I talk too much because I'm home 24/7!), and I will never forget how nice and polite he was to me, a buyer of a 10$ or less card! Before hanging up, he asked me what he could do to help me with my collection; whether buying it, selling it for me or selling me cards. He went out of his way to make a great impression, and his offers were sincere, serious, and this is how he gets such a following.

As to the grade jumping, I'm sure lots of people buy and re-submit.

Well, that's my 2 cents!
Have a great weekend. And Jay, I've been admiring your tremendous selection of vintage non-sport cards! You, my friend, have some amazing stuff.
Everyone have a great Sunday.
Your Friend,
Bill Hedin
Framingham, MA

[25801wv]

Probstein is not the problem. Don't bid what you can't afford to spend. How could Probstein monitor if the original consigner of his card is also bidding on the same cards with 10,000 auctions a month? As far as I know it is not a requirement for you to list all of your & your families & friends ebay user id's when consigning a card. Probstein (or any other) just needs your name, mailing address, and email address. You do not even have to have an ebay account to consign with Probstein because he is the one that has the ebay account. To me a shill bid would be if Probstein had another secret ebay account and he was shill bidding so he could get the maximum value for his auctions in order to increase his commission. It is impossible to stop the original consigner of the card or there associates from bidding on an auction on ebay that they have an interest in.

The real problem is people thinking because PSA says is a 10 that it is Gem Mint & suddenly worth 10x-100x+ the Nmt/Mt value of a card. If you place a bid in an auction then you should be willing to pay that amount. Do you also care that people subscribe to websites that send there bids in within the last few seconds of an auction?

ES

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Mark I don't disagree, just stating that here on N54 the give & take can go on about a grading company, a dealer or anything related to the hobby.
Moreso then an avenue where the company that has criticisms levied against them is the sponsor of the site.

I agree, Jay.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I agree, Jay.

It might be worth mentioning that I take a ton of calls and emails from our advertisers because of what gets talked about, concerning them, on this site. There have been several that will not advertise because of things that are, or have been, said. It's not that big of a deal to me. They can always respond if they wish to. I always tell them the same thing......"I don't tell members what to say or not to say and I don't protect anyone or any company."
You do need to have your full name in your post if you want to speak positively or negatively about a person or company. That goes for everyone. I will probably go back in this thread and start putting some names in posts too. If you don't like it, put your name there yourself, don't give opinions, or don't post or edit your post out. Take your pick. thanks and happy collecting!!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by 25801wv

Don't bid what you can't afford to spend.

The real problem is people thinking because PSA says is a 10 that it is Gem Mint & suddenly worth 10x-100x+ the Nmt/Mt value of a card. If you place a bid in an auction then you should be willing to pay that amount. Do you also care that people subscribe to websites that send there bids in within the last few seconds of an auction?

I've never bid more than I could afford, but if someone inflated my payment through nefarious means, why should I tolerate that?

I agree that paying high prices for PSA 10s can be foolish for a number reasons - mainly because of the subjectivity in grading and there are probably many equally as nice cards graded PSA 9 for a fraction of the price.

I have no problem with sniping. It keeps people, especially shill bidders, from running me up if they knew I was an aggressive bidder.

Please make your profile public. Thanks for posting.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I've never bid more than I could afford, but if someone inflated my payment through nefarious means, why should I tolerate that?
.

So you can enjoy the hobby more?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 25801wv

How could Probstein monitor if the original consigner of his card is also bidding on the same cards with 10,000 auctions a month?

I'm not going to argue whether or not Probstein knew his consignors were shilling their own auctions. I can't prove he did, you can't prove he didn't. Either way, ignorance is no excuse. However, here is the bottom line: NOW, HE KNOWS! He's been made aware of the fact. How he handles the situation from here will tell us everything we need to know about his character. So far, I've only heard crickets.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

i'm not going to argue whether or not probstein knew his consignors were shilling their own auctions. I can't prove he did, you can't prove he didn't. Either way, ignorance is no excuse. However, here is the bottom line: Now, he knows! He's been made aware of the fact. How he handles the situation from here will tell us everything we need to know about his character. So far, i've only heard crickets.

man please, get a life!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

man please, get a life!

Hello, Kevin

Originally Posted by 25801wv

Probstein is not the problem. Don't bid what you can't afford to spend. How could Probstein monitor if the original consigner of his card is also bidding on the same cards with 10,000 auctions a month? As far as I know it is not a requirement for you to list all of your & your families & friends ebay user id's when consigning a card. Probstein (or any other) just needs your name, mailing address, and email address. You do not even have to have an ebay account to consign with Probstein because he is the one that has the ebay account. To me a shill bid would be if Probstein had another secret ebay account and he was shill bidding so he could get the maximum value for his auctions in order to increase his commission. It is impossible to stop the original consigner of the card or there associates from bidding on an auction on ebay that they have an interest in.

The real problem is people thinking because PSA says is a 10 that it is Gem Mint & suddenly worth 10x-100x+ the Nmt/Mt value of a card. If you place a bid in an auction then you should be willing to pay that amount. Do you also care that people subscribe to websites that send there bids in within the last few seconds of an auction?

ES

You forgot the rest of your name. Initials don't work. Simple rules we all have to follow.

[Tcards-Please]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

You forgot the rest of your name. Initials don't work. Simple rules we all have to follow.

Leon added his name earlier, but it looks like E.S went in and changed it to his initials. He also changed his name to "why does this matter". I guess he is related to "He Hate Me" and is exempt from basic board rules.

r/
Frank

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm not going to argue whether or not Probstein knew his consignors were shilling their own auctions. I can't prove he did, you can't prove he didn't. Either way, ignorance is no excuse. However, here is the bottom line: NOW, HE KNOWS! He's been made aware of the fact. How he handles the situation from here will tell us everything we need to know about his character. So far, I've only heard crickets.

I assume the last thing he will do is post his response on this Board.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

i assume the last thing he will do is post his response on this board.

he does not need to post any response on this board. Accusations were made by david james without any proof. If david james is certain that this has been going, where is the proof?? You don't accuse someone of something purely on speculation. Alot of this quite frankly sounds like sour grapes to me.....

[botn]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

You don't accuse someone of something purely on speculation.

Not suggesting that is what David is doing but sadly THAT is what goes on here all too often--lots of personal agendas get played out here to the detriment of certain people's reputations. All the while certain criminal elements in the hobby are spared.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

he does not need to post any response on this board.

That's what I am saying.

And I do think that ignorance is an excuse.....there is no way he could be monitoring his auctions for shilling accounts that he probably doesn't even know who it is. If I start consigning for people and I see H****6 (183) making an early bid on one my auctions, how am I supposed to know that may be one of my consignor's accounts?

But from what I hear about Rick and his reputation, I'm sure he will tell him to not shill on his consignments. Not sure what good that will do it he has other accounts.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Accusations were made by david james without any proof. If david james is certain that this has been going, where is the proof??

Kevin, do you want proof? Okay, give me just a few minutes and I'll have your proof. In the meantime, go take your meds so you can fully comprehend what I'm about to lay out before you.

[nolemmings]

But from what I hear about Rick and his reputation, I'm sure he will tell him to not shill on his consignments. Not sure what good that will do it he has other accounts.

What he should do is refuse to take any more consignments from the shiller--why agree to profit from a known cheater?

[CMIZ5290]

David- you are the one that just said you had no proof! Besides, like the last post said, how in the world can this guy possibly monitor the amount of auctions he has to deal with?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

i'm not going to argue whether or not probstein knew his consignors were shilling their own auctions. I can't prove he did, you can't prove he didn't. Either way, ignorance is no excuse. However, here is the bottom line: Now, he knows! He's been made aware of the fact. How he handles the situation from here will tell us everything we need to know about his character. So far, i've only heard crickets.

here is the post

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

David- you are the one that just said you had no proof! Besides, like the last post said, how in the world can this guy possibly monitor the amount of auctions he has to deal with?

Agreed. But it's just as clear that fraud occurred in his auctions. Is it asking so much for Rick to address such an issue that he clearly has knowledge of at this point?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Agreed. But it's just as clear that fraud occurred in his auctions. Is it asking so much for Rick to address such an issue that he clearly has knowledge of at this point?

Would you advise a client to come on this Board and address issues?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Would you advise a client to come on this Board and address issues?

If he had done nothing wrong and had nothing to hide? Of course.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

David- you are the one that just said you had no proof! Besides, like the last post said, how in the world can this guy possibly monitor the amount of auctions he has to deal with?

And here comes the spin. Kevin, if I said I had no proof that he knew about it, then why are you asking me for proof? I thought you were asking me for proof whether or not the auction was shilled. Clearly it was. Probstein has now been made aware of the fact. So, what's he going to do about it? As someone that has bid on his items and purchased from him, I think I have the right to know. After all, who's to say I wasn't shilled in one of his auctions?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Peter,

If you read that thread on CU (which has since been deleted), he did respond to the questions about the bumps. However, when he was asked about the shilling, he dummied up real quick and didn't say another word. Why would he choose to address some issues and not others?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If he had done nothing wrong and had nothing to hide? Of course.

So if I accuse a client of yours of wrongdoing, and he doesn't respond, I will know he has done something wrong and has something to hide?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter,

If you read that thread on CU (which has since been deleted), he did respond to the questions about the bumps. However, when he was asked about the shilling, he dummied up real quick and didn't say another word. Why would he choose to address some issues and not others?

What did he say about the bumps, I didn't see it pre-poofery.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I accuse a client of yours of wrongdoing, and he doesn't respond, I will know he has done something wrong and has something to hide?

Peter, I'm guessing you're having a boring Sunday. There's an issue that arose here based on someone's auctions which were clearly shilled. It's a discreet, simple issue to address which does not really require much research or investigation. There's no grand jury sitting and no federal agents doing the questioning. It would seem bizarre to ignore it especially when the auctioneer apparently addressed half of the claim. And the auctioneer is not someone who has a history of being lambasted on this board and would have a reason to shy away from making a statement.

I honestly think this is pretty easily handled by Rick.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Peter, I'm guessing you're having a boring Sunday. There's an issue that arose here based on someone's auctions which were clearly shilled. It's a discreet, simple issue to address which does not really require much research or investigation. There's no grand jury sitting and no federal agents doing the questioning. It would seem bizarre to ignore it especially when the auctioneer apparently addressed half of the claim. And the auctioneer is not someone who has a history of being lambasted on this board and would have a reason to shy away from making a statement.

I honestly think this is pretty easily handled by Rick

Yeah, a tad slow I would say. My point though is that with this crowd, I'm not sure I would advise anyone to come on here, even if they were completely innocent. There's always going to be someone who isn't satisfied with the explanation, or demand more proof, or whatever, and someone who is going to infer guilt from the failure to answer the last question quickly enough. I have no idea if Rick is guilty of anything, that isn't my point, my point rather is that I don't think it's fair to infer guilt from his unwillingness to engage with us.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter,

If you read that thread on CU (which has since been deleted), he did respond to the questions about the bumps. However, when he was asked about the shilling, he dummied up real quick and didn't say another word. Why would he choose to address some issues and not others?

It appears that the seller's response was copied on Post #10 of this thread.