A New Rule concerning PM's- Poll

[Leon]

Originally Posted by terjung

So you are allowed to quote something that somebody said to you, but not what they wrote to you? Not quite sure I understand the rationale, but I guess I'm of the opinion that I don't have to read threads that degenerate into arguments.

Brian- is it really that difficult to understand what was sent is "private?" I don't think I am following your logic.

Of course there won't be any rule against saying what someone said to you verbally but then whoever is saying that does have to have their name by it and is liable for what they are quoting. I think the board is going to agree with this rule per the voting. We shall see....

[E93]

I say keep it private. IMHO the personal attacks and fighting on the board just harm the board anyway and drive people away. It keeps people from posting on even the benign threads out of fear of what it will become. I think there is way too much personal stuff and fighting already and any attempt to scale it back is a good thing for the community. I have heard so many really knowledgeable and level-headed people who could make a great contribution here tell me that it is just not worth it for these reasons.

That said, though I would presume privacy, I would not write anything in an email or PM that I would not be comfortable with others seeing. People just don't respect privacy anymore.
JimB

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by E93

I say keep it private. IMHO the personal attacks and fighting on the board just harm the board anyway and drive people away. It keeps people from posting on even the benign threads out of fear of what it will become. I think there is way too much personal stuff and fighting already and any attempt to scale it back is a good thing for the community. I have heard so many really knowledgeable and level-headed people who could make a great contribution here tell me that it is just not worth it for these reasons.

That said, though I would presume privacy, I would not write anything in an email or PM that I would not be comfortable with others seeing. People just don't respect privacy anymore.
JimB

I disagree in a certain respect for the personal arguments. Some arguments are needed, ones that bring attention to certain issues in our beloved hobby. Even the personal attacks sometimes are like a train wreck, hard to watch, but you can't turn away.

[CW]

Voted no, they should not be posted.

If something crosses the line it should be forwarded to the moderator.

[E93]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I disagree in a certain respect for the personal arguments. Some arguments are needed, ones that bring attention to certain issues in our beloved hobby. Even the personal attacks sometimes are like a train wreck, hard to watch, but you can't turn away.

Personal arguments don't help the hobby, other than letting the rest of us know who the a$$#oles are by the way they present themselves. I'm not saying stop shedding light on fraud or other unethical activity in the hobby. I'm saying leave the petty personal stuff, the immature stuff, and the unsubstantiated claims out.
JimB

[RGold]

I believe that if there is a rule that private messages are not to be posted to the forum, then those messages should not be posted without the permission of the moderator.

It does bother me when a new member within a few days of joining threatens multiple lawsuits to those that disagree with him. There is a forum to counter those arguments. Of course, I can understand if someone feels they are continuously being attacked unfairly, they have every right to advise the offender that legal action could result. However, to threaten lawsuits every time someone says something you do not like to hear stifles the free exchange of ideas and amounts to bullying in my opinion. The real issue here is not what rules should be enforced regarding private messages because that is easy to address.

Bullying on this board is the real issue. Count me in as the one of the many members that will not normally post anything of consequence on this board. I was on other boards in the past and did not "play" well with others. However, I have noticed in the last year many instances of what amounts to bullying, and felt like I wanted to say my piece.

Bullying can be threatening lawsuits or physical harm, making fun of someone's collection, the law school they attended or the hourly fees they charge, or talking about them on on a radio show. We are all equal here and each of us should be judged by the strength of our posts and our dealings with each other. Humor and a sharp tongue is different than ridicule and intimidation.

One of the smartest people I have ever known, is a Harvard Law grad. I have never seen him use that as an argument here. There are members that have exceptional collections worth huge amounts of money that do not bully others by using that in their posts. How much a person makes should not be used here. Making fun of someone's lifestyle choices is bullying. I also made the choice several years ago to scale back my business and investments because of the trade off making less money afforded me.

There is another type of bullying that goes on here. Whether you feel strongly about raw cards vs graded cards, low grade cards vs high grade cards or PSA vs SGC, continually posting about it at every turn is bullying. Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Bill Goodwin, J.P. Cohen and others are all open game to be discussed. Are we all so ignorant that we need to be browbeaten continuously to understand your positions? I know the response is don't read it, and I agree. You can start a thread every day with your vendettas as is your right and I can ignore those. Interjecting and hijacking unrelated posts is bullying.

I am not suggesting a myriad of rules or that the moderator uses a heavy hand in censoring posts. I am just suggesting that we all display common decency and that we do not condone bullying here or in real life no matter how "popular" the member may be.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by RGold

I believe that if there is a rule that private messages are not to be posted to the forum, then those messages should not be posted without the permission of the moderator.

It does bother me when a new member within a few days of joining threatens multiple lawsuits to those that disagree with him. There is a forum to counter those arguments. Of course, I can understand if someone feels they are continuously being attacked unfairly, they have every right to advise the offender that legal action could result. However, to threaten lawsuits every time someone says something you do not like to hear stifles the free exchange of ideas and amounts to bullying in my opinion. The real issue here is not what rules should be enforced regarding private messages because that is easy to address.

Bullying on this board is the real issue. Count me in as the one of the many members that will not normally post anything of consequence on this board. I was on other boards in the past and did not "play" well with others. However, I have noticed in the last year many instances of what amounts to bullying, and felt like I wanted to say my piece.

Bullying can be threatening lawsuits or physical harm, making fun of someone's collection, the law school they attended or the hourly fees they charge, or talking about them on on a radio show. We are all equal here and each of us should be judged by the strength of our posts and our dealings with each other. Humor and a sharp tongue is different than ridicule and intimidation.

One of the smartest people I have ever known, is a Harvard Law grad. I have never seen him use that as an argument here. There are members that have exceptional collections worth huge amounts of money that do not bully others by using that in their posts. How much a person makes should not be used here. Making fun of someone's lifestyle choices is bullying. I also made the choice several years ago to scale back my business and investments because of the trade off making less money afforded me.

There is another type of bullying that goes on here. Whether you feel strongly about raw cards vs graded cards, low grade cards vs high grade cards or PSA vs SGC, continually posting about it at every turn is bullying. Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Bill Goodwin, J.P. Cohen and others are all open game to be discussed. Are we all so ignorant that we need to be browbeaten continuously to understand your positions? I know the response is don't read it, and I agree. You can start a thread every day with your vendettas as is your right and I can ignore those. Interjecting and hijacking unrelated posts is bullying.

I am not suggesting a myriad of rules or that the moderator uses a heavy hand in censoring posts. I am just suggesting that we all display common decency and that we do not condone bullying here or in real life no matter how "popular" the member may be.

+1

[jefferyepayne]

I was taught a long time ago that you NEVER write something and send it to someone that you don't want the entire world to see. As Mr. Goldin has found out, this applies to appearances on TV as well ;-)

I think if the Net54 rule has always been that emails are private, then PMs should be private as well. However, I don't particularly like this decision / thread being spawned because of a likely complaint by a Net54 advertiser. At least the perception of this is that the tail is wagging the dog which doesn't sit well with me.

jeff

Originally Posted by E93

I say keep it private. IMHO the personal attacks and fighting on the board just harm the board anyway and drive people away. It keeps people from posting on even the benign threads out of fear of what it will become. I think there is way too much personal stuff and fighting already and any attempt to scale it back is a good thing for the community. I have heard so many really knowledgeable and level-headed people who could make a great contribution here tell me that it is just not worth it for these reasons.

That said, though I would presume privacy, I would not write anything in an email or PM that I would not be comfortable with others seeing. People just don't respect privacy anymore.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

I was taught a long time ago that you NEVER write something and send it to someone that you don't want the entire world to see. As Mr. Goldin has found out, this applies to appearances on TV as well ;-)

I think if the Net54 rule has always been that emails are private, then PMs should be private as well. However, I don't particularly like this decision / thread being spawned because of a likely complaint by a Net54 advertiser. At least the perception of this is that the tail is wagging the dog which doesn't sit well with me.

jeff

i can personally attest that this came up this morning in a conversation between me and Leon after I had asked him what the rule was; it was definitely not the result of Leon giving in to pressure from an advertiser.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

I was taught a long time ago that you NEVER write something and send it to someone that you don't want the entire world to see. As Mr. Goldin has found out, this applies to appearances on TV as well ;-)

I think if the Net54 rule has always been that emails are private, then PMs should be private as well. However, I don't particularly like this decision / thread being spawned because of a likely complaint by a Net54 advertiser. At least the perception of this is that the tail is wagging the dog which doesn't sit well with me.

jeff

This thread was in fact spawned by the Goldin thread but not for ONLY this thread. That being said this rule probably should have been implemented the same day the "no posting of emails" rule was put in place. Hobby changes and board changes are evolutionary imho. As far as not liking something....join the crowd .

And more than anything Peter is correct and I will allow him to post our emails if he wants to, to prove it.... it was definitely our emails more than the exact thread that warranted this new thread/rule......

[Ladder7]

Voted no. Besides, this is just baseball cards and dweebs with massive online egos. I know, I'm their king!

Ms Frost, my hero!http://www.wbtv.com/story/19171751/t...er-saggy-pants

[wonkaticket]

So I see Ken called daddy this AM huh?

Enough semi nice guy here let’s timeline this one for a second shall we?

• Goldin crawls out of the wood work to announce that he his starting a business. A business that would like to obtain revenue from members of this forum.
  
• Goldin pays for ads so that way he can broadcast to the community, makes sense others pay for that right.
  
• Goldin gets his moment of board time and it doesn’t quite go as he would like.
  
• Goldin has his past (in video not hearsay) brought up by people like myself and others. The reviews are in and they aren’t all glowing with support for Goldin.
  
• Goldin has even more sad stories posted about his past dealings people comment on those Goldin doesn’t like that.
  
• Goldin contacts member via PM (me) to tell me that I have the problem at hand not him and am in the dark and would like to personally talk to me. Of course if I don’t want to take time to speak with him continue to be wrong.
  
• Goldin cries the blues because I felt the need for the community to be aware of the tactics at play, also for being direct and honest not hiding behind PM’s and he said she said crap.

So there we are….while we are discussing things about the forum we should poll I have a few to recommend.

Is it right for any of us to be PM’ed in the first place by advertisers who get their feelings ruffled? Why is being a part of this community now come with the joy of being contacted by quite honestly con men who bilked folks out of cash? If I wanted to talk to Ken Goldins of the world I would have dialed into Shop at Home and bought those gem mint Tiger Woods cards that Ken was so nice to sell at 2k because next week they are selling the same ones for 5k right?

Let me be clear here…we are not pals. I have no interest in getting to know the “real” Ken. No interest in hearing where “I” went wrong on innocent Ken, and Little to no interest in his business venture. Basically 100% no interest in hearing his spin in private form.

Just because he came here and tossed a few hundred bucks to the mod doesn’t make us PM buddies IMO. How about asking why your members need to be bothered by Goldin’s privately for simply voicing an opinion that Ken Goldin’s of the world disagree with?

If Ken Goldin wants to tell me why I have it wrong and why I should forget 1997 Ken Goldin when it comes to the 2012 Ken Goldin he can do so in the public thread for us all to read. I made my points public he can make his counter points public and leave my PM inbox alone unless I reach out to him just my two cents.
John

[doug.goodman]

If both sides of a "private" message want the message private, then so be it. But, if one side deems the message "public", then I have no problem with that.

Doug

[Vol]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

If both sides of a "private" message want the message private, then so be it. But, if one side deems the message "public", then I have no problem with that.

Doug

+1

[npa589]

I don't have a problem with the new rule in principle, which, I suppose is all that matters.

He didn't continue to try to fight us in public, he took to the PM to quell John from making any further comments. I think that the public display of the exact PM was okay because it also alleviated, as Wonka said, the "he said, she said" aspect when people were reading the thread. So, in that sense, I'm okay with it.

Also, it has not been a problem in the past. The no posting of e-mails is a great rule, and they are definitely related to PMs, other than for the fact that it's rather easy to edit an e-mail, even in a screenshot. Also, we don't have access to a moderator to clear up the air, reading the exact e-mail sent from companies like Comcast, Yahoo, or Google. At any time, Leon can just check pms to see what was actually said. That being said, however, people not as respectable as Wonka may began to run with the posting of PMs, and it could become a very frustrating display of cat-fighting and high-school drama. That would be detrimental to the board. That's why I think the rule should be implemented, with this possible asterisk:

How about a compromise, we still contact Leon before posting any PMs, but if it is deemed by Leon to be helpful, by way of saving people money, or helping "clean up the hobby, making people aware of some bad apples", it can be allowed to be posted. Just a thought....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

So I see Ken called daddy this AM huh?

Enough semi nice guy here let’s timeline this one for a second shall we?

• Goldin crawls out of the wood work to announce that he his starting a business. A business that would like to obtain revenue from members of this forum.
  
• Goldin pays for ads so that way he can broadcast to the community, makes sense others pay for that right.
  
• Goldin gets his moment of board time and it doesn’t quite go as he would like.
  
• Goldin has his past (in video not hearsay) brought up by people like myself and others. The reviews are in and they aren’t all glowing with support for Goldin.
  
• Goldin has even more sad stories posted about his past dealings people comment on those Goldin doesn’t like that.
  
• Goldin contacts member via PM (me) to tell me that I have the problem at hand not him and am in the dark and would like to personally talk to me. Of course if I don’t want to take time to speak with him continue to be wrong.
  
• Goldin cries the blues because I felt the need for the community to be aware of the tactics at play, also for being direct and honest not hiding behind PM’s and he said she said crap.

So there we are….while we are discussing things about the forum we should poll I have a few to recommend.

Is it right for any of us to be PM’ed in the first place by advertisers who get their feelings ruffled? Why is being a part of this community now come with the joy of being contacted by quite honestly con men who bilked folks out of cash? If I wanted to talk to Ken Goldins of the world I would have dialed into Shop at Home and bought those gem mint Tiger Woods cards that Ken was so nice to sell at 2k because next week they are selling the same ones for 5k right?

Let me be clear here…we are not pals. I have no interest in getting to know the “real” Ken. No interest in hearing where “I” went wrong on innocent Ken, and Little to no interest in his business venture. Basically 100% no interest in hearing his spin in private form.

Just because he came here and tossed a few hundred bucks to the mod doesn’t make us PM buddies IMO. How about asking why your members need to be bothered by Goldin’s privately for simply voicing an opinion that Ken Goldin’s of the world disagree with?

If Ken Goldin wants to tell me why I have it wrong and why I should forget 1997 Ken Goldin when it comes to the 2012 Ken Goldin he can do so in the public thread for us all to read. I made my points public he can make his counter points public and leave my PM inbox alone unless I reach out to him just my two cents.

John

Just like every single other member, you are no different and you are welcome to your opinion. I suggest you learn how to use the ignore feature (though it won't work on me ) ......happy collecting!!

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just like every single other member, you are no different and you are welcome to your opinion. I suggest you learn how to use the ignore feature (though it won't work on me ) ......happy collecting!!

Leon, first PM from Ken didn’t think of the preemptive PM nice play however could get tricky to manage. You mean I can’t ignore you ahhh shucks!

Not rubbing salt in the wounds but think this should also been seen now that this has been brought up to the community… it’s not a rule yet right?

I will post this to show I was cordial to Ken.



As you know I made this known to both you and Ken this AM with my reply to Ken. Which I think was more than cordial considering here’s a guy who is on video over the past years using snake oil if you will to take advantage of less educated collectors. The result giving folks a bad taste of a hobby I love dearly. I have to get a PM from him saying I’m all wrong and I need to be straightened out with the facts reach out to him or be wrong and continue to focus on his past.

Yeah sorry like most folks if every time I have seen you in public you kick somebody in the crotch forgive me if I bring my cup on our first date.

Cheers,

John

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Is it right for any of us to be PM’ed in the first place by advertisers who get their feelings ruffled? Why is being a part of this community now come with the joy of being contacted by quite honestly con men who bilked folks out of cash? If I wanted to talk to Ken Goldins of the world I would have dialed into Shop at Home and bought those gem mint Tiger Woods cards that Ken was so nice to sell at 2k because next week they are selling the same ones for 5k right?

[/U]
John

If I had a dollar for every advertiser, auction house principal or their co-conspirators who called me at home or in the office in an effort to stop me from discussing them on the board....get used to it, John! Very, very bad for the hobby. The worst. Ever.

I say yes and that emails should be allowed also. Kyle Copeland, kyletexas, is prime example. You wanna talk crap about someone and lie about the situation and play it off like there the victim when the pm's and emails say different then you should be allowed to post them if they go public on a forum. If people want to send me hate mail or pm's that's fine because we can banter that way and No need to go public. You want to talk crap on the forum then game on IMO.

[DJR]

.